Comments on: Aye Can

Aye Can

Lezzles — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 01:58:41 -0800

Can you speak Scots? As part of this year's census people in Scotland will be asked to say if they can understand speak, read and / or write Scots.

There's mair tae it than bairn, wean, dreich, brae, heid, doon, aboot, cooncil, hoose, lang, eejit, glaikit, bonnie, ken, fitba, lad, lass, stooshie, stramash, faither, mither, maw, paw.

By: twoleftfeet

twoleftfeet — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:22:12 -0800

I can speak Scots. Or rather, I can slur Scots every New Year as I try to drunkenly mumble the third verse of Auld Lang Syne*: We twa hae run about the braes, and pu'd the gowans fine ; But we've wander'd mony a weary fit, sin auld lang syne.

By: awfurby

awfurby — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:23:53 -0800

I tell you what - if you can get past the lady from Caithness, you're probably Scottish. Note to idiots the world over - do not call someone from Scotland "Scotch".

By: Lezzles

Lezzles — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:31:15 -0800

twoleftfeet: Just so long as you get the s/z distinction right in the chorus of ˈɔːld lɑŋˈsəin

By: daveje

daveje — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:33:18 -0800

Man goes to the dentist, lies down on the chair. The dentist asks, "Comfy?" The man replies, "Govan."

By: twoleftfeet

twoleftfeet — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:36:29 -0800

Whale oil beef hooked is the usual phrase used to train the ear to Irish. What's the phrase for Scot?

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:56:13 -0800

That's a pretty interesting site. One thing it does manage to convey is just how regionalised either a word or the nuance of its meaning might be. An extract form a recent email from my brother to illustrate:

And after 3 days of no post at all, we finally got 4 days worth of mail today. It was the orra postman as our postie is off sick. What do you mean, you don't know what orra means? Not so long ago, when the Courier advertised for molecatchers on the front page, which was totally classified ads, you would see adverts for an orramen, usually agricultural. An orraman was not quite as good as a tractorman or stockman, but would lend a hand feeding stock, working the calf catching crate, and would drive a tractor for a not too skilled job like rolling and so on. So our orra postie appears on our route when someone is sick or on holiday - he is a really nice man, just very very slightly not the full shilling, and a monumentally insensitive driver. Orra describes him well, and is not really meant as derogatory. Although like rat-catchers and dustbin men (now pest controllers and refuse collectors, or waste operatives) things have moved on. But orra in a derogatory sense is used in appearance - someone looking 'gey orra' is not smartly enough turned out - a rough looking beater at a smart shoot, people the worse for wear the following day after a big party, or just badly turned out folk in the street - I suppose orra would mean "a bit too ordinary". An orra-looking car might not get you to Glasgow. Or Crieff.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 02:57:28 -0800

Scotland, where being unable to speak properly becomes the cultural heritage.

By: awfurby

awfurby — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:01:14 -0800

Scotland, where being unable to speak properly becomes the cultural heritage. Really? Was that supposed to be a joke? Or are you trolling?

By: Lezzles

Lezzles — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:10:55 -0800

I suppose orra would mean "a bit too ordinary" The DSL has a long entry for "orra" and this great quote from Sheena Blackhall: Ither weel-meanin bodies Jump oot frae ahin the curtains Wi a speenfu o English pheesic Tae purge the Scots spikker O aa orra idioms, Aa non-standard spikks An Tom Leonard winnerfu wordies.

By: molecicco

molecicco — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:18:04 -0800

Man goes to the dentist, lies down on the chair. The dentist asks, "Comfy?" The man replies, "Govan." I speak no Scots. Can I please get an explanation of this joke?

By: Lanark

Lanark — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:19:17 -0800

Heres a link to all the audio files (not all of them are linked on the fancy webpage) census_shetland1.mp3 Valerie - writing for children census_orkney1.mp3 Sheila - working in the bank census_caithness1.mp3 census_caithness2.mp3 Nancy - how Caithness people speak census_northeast1.mp3 census_northeast2.mp3 census_northeast3.mp3 census_northeast4.mp3 census_northeast5.mp3 census_northeast6.mp3 Colin talks about what Doric means census_angus2.mp3 Gavin the - story of a farmer Richard - his father's job census_lothian2.mp3 census_lothian3.mp3 Yvonne - waiting for a delivery census_westcentral12.mp3 ensus_southwest1.mp3 Chris - cormorant names census_southwest3.mp3 Alasdair - the word 'souter' census_borders2.mp3 Wullie - the word 'jink' census_angus12.mp3 census_angus13.mp3

By: Lanark

Lanark — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:20:58 -0800

Man goes to the dentist, lies down on the chair. The dentist asks, "Comfy?" The man replies, "Govan." I speak no Scots. Can I please get an explanation of this joke? posted by molecicco Comfy sounds very like "come Frae?" or in english "where do you come from?"

By: bwg

bwg — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:47:06 -0800

fire&wings: "Scotland, where being unable to speak properly becomes the cultural heritage" Hamish: Where are you going? William Wallace: I'm going to pick a fight. Hamish: Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.

By: Lanark

Lanark — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:53:46 -0800

Scotland, where being unable to speak properly becomes the cultural heritage. posted by fire&wings at 10:57 AM This is a problem the scottish language has had for a long time, because the Scottish language is so close to English and because most of the speakers are working class and because there are so many regional dialects, many people just assume it's slang or not a "proper" language, Rabbie Burns be damned. For years Scottish school children would attend school and be expected to pick up, what for some of them was practically a foreign language (English.) In recent years the pendulum has swung in the other direction with children being taught scottish words and poetry. There is some debate about how valuable this is in a world dominated by English, thats probably why this is being asked in the census.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:57:50 -0800

I learned most of my contemporary Scots from reading James Kelman; How Late It Was, How Late must be one of the best novels published in the UK in the 20th century. So, erm, good luck to those preserving the language.

By: bwg

bwg — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:00:57 -0800

I love the site! Most of the Scots accents I can understand fairly well, although of course tons of local words would escape me until I learned them. Foo's yer doos?

By: the cuban

the cuban — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:17:24 -0800

Scotland, where being unable to speak properly becomes the cultural heritage. posted by fire&wings at 2:57 AM Just knew you'd appear in this thread to squeeze out a skittery wee keech. What's your problem with Scotland?

By: Wolof

Wolof — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:20:59 -0800

Just so long as you get the s/z distinction Sounds like a job for Roland Barthes.

By: Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo

Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:23:18 -0800

This is interesting. I grew up in the North-East of Scotland, and always spoke Doric with my family, and with my community. Until I went to school, that is, and we were constantly punished for using slang whenever we spoke Scots. I vividly remember feeling incredibly stupid, and really ashamed of my family for not teaching me the "proper" way to speak. By the time I reached university, I had taught myself to always speak "The Queen's English", even when around my family and others who spoke Scots, because I had been taught that Scots was little more than slang, and only stupid people spoke that way. Liz Lochhead wrote a poem about the experience of a Scots speaker in school, and it's quite wonderful. Kidspoem/Bairnsang it wis January and a gey driech day the first day Ah went to the school so my Mum happed me up in ma good navy-blue napp coat wi the rid tartan hood birled a scarf aroon ma neck pu'ed oan ma pixie an' my pawkies it wis that bitter said noo ye'll no starve gie'd me a wee kiss and a kid-oan skelp oan the bum and sent me aff across the playground tae the place A'd learn to say it was January and a really dismal day the first day I went to school so my mother wrapped me up in my best nay-blue top coat with the red tartan hood, twirled a scarf around my neck, pulled on my bobble-hat and mittens it was so bitterly cold said now you won't freeze to death gave me a little kiss and a pretend slap on the bottom and sent me off across the playground to the place I'd learn to forget to say it wis January and a gey driech day the first day Ah went to the school so my Mum happed me up in ma good navy-blue napp coat wi the rid tartan hood, birled a scarf aroon ma neck, pu'ed oan ma pixie and' ma pawkies it wis that bitter. Oh saying it was one thing But when it came to writing it In black and white The way it had to be said Was as if you were posh, grown-up, male, English and dead.

By: Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo

Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:25:40 -0800

bwg: Foo's yer doos? Chavin awa, loun, chavin awa.

By: GeckoDundee

GeckoDundee — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:28:12 -0800

I can't see how to count the number of Scots speakers. Nobody in Scotland speaks Scots and no native speaks English. Everyone speaks something somewhere on a continuum between the two. What is close enough to one extreme or the other to count as Scots (the language) or Scots (a generic term for the several Scottish dialects of English) varies. Sometimes it's and has been political, sometimes its more to do with social context. (Isn't it "loon"?)

By: DanCall

DanCall — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:32:19 -0800

Also, can you understand (the book) Trainspotting? Opening passage: "The sweat wis lashing oafay Sick Boy; he wis trembling. Ah wis jist sitting thair, focusing oan the telly, trying no tae notice the c---. He wis bringing me doon. Ah tried tae keep ma attention oan the Jean-Claude Van Damme video. As happens in such movies, they started oaf wi an obligatory dramatic opening. Then the next phase ay the picture involved building up the tension through introdusing the dastardly villain and sticking the weak plot thegither. Any minute now though, auld Jean-Claude's ready tae get doon tae some serious swedgin. - Rents. Ah've got tae see Mother Superior, Sick Boy gasped, shaking his heid. Aw, ah sais. Ah wanted the radge tae jist f--- off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us wi Jean-Claude. Oan the other hand, ah'd be getting sick tae before long, and if that c--- went n scored, he'd haud oot oan us. They call um Sick Boy, not because he's eywis sick wi junk withdrawl, but because he's just one sick c---." I found it hard at first, but after a few pages I was fluent.

By: Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo

Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:35:44 -0800

(Isn't it "loon"?) We always spelled the words as loun/quean, but I've seen them spelled as loon/quine, and I don't know which way is right. I think the difference is because none of us were taught how to write Scots and so very few know the standardized spelling. Or it's entirely possible the different spelling is just a Doric vs. Everywhere Else thing which would not surprise me (see, for example, the standard joke about the Aberdonian with furry boots).

By: KirkpatrickMac

KirkpatrickMac — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:37:28 -0800

As an ex-pat Scot who's been out of the country for about 15 years, I was real chuffed tae see that ah could still understand some ae the patter! Robert Burns was held up as a near hero at my primary school - his birthplace was close by. There were yearly competitions where we were expected to recite his poetry (my zenith in the competitions was aspiring to a reading of 'To a Mouse'). But that paled when compared with my classmate who memorised and recited (word perfect and unassisted) all of 'Tam O'Shanter'. But saying all that, in general the Scots portion of our curriculum was sadly restricted, and I still feel to this day that there could have been much more offered in that space. So it's great to see that there is a bit of focus on the language - I hope it leads to more visibility and celebration of the diversity of the Scottish people and their languages.

By: kersplunk

kersplunk — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:41:55 -0800

Whale oil beef hooked is the usual phrase used to train the ear to Irish. That's not even wrong.

By: KirkpatrickMac

KirkpatrickMac — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:54:59 -0800

And for anyone who still thinks Scottish people speak as if they're from the set of Brigadoon here's a wee dose of Ned culture [NSFW] to set you right.

By: koolkat

koolkat — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:56:03 -0800

Ack Crivens I cannae speak the Scots, but I ken the Feegle. Nai Laird Nae Quin mbmbmblmbmlmbmelbmmble we wont be fooled again.

By: scruss

scruss — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:56:35 -0800

> a skittery wee keech We had a couple of Polish exchange students in my postgrad course at Strathclyde. They wanted to see some of Scotland, so a few of us got together for car tours. On the day we went to Stirling Castle, they were badgering me in the car for Scottish swear words. So I taught them ‘keech’, thinking little harm could come of it. As soon as we got to the castle, Przemek and Igor burst out the car, ran to opposite sides of the ramparts, and bellowed “KEECH!” loud enough to be heard down the whole carse. Cultural exchange, people. Be proud.

By: GeckoDundee

GeckoDundee — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:58:30 -0800

Furry boots? Sounds comfy. The whole business of spelling in Scots always struck me as strange. I wonder if people were pretending that Scots didn't exist when English spelling was being standardised.

By: scruss

scruss — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:02:38 -0800

oh, and: A Brief Lesson in Braid Scots from the Absolutely crew. (declaring minor self-linkage: I posted it, didn't make it.)

By: Nanukthedog

Nanukthedog — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:08:20 -0800

My second favorite conversational Scottish phrase was: (and apropos to Metafilter) "Can I Owe it to you, all I got's a fiver?" second only to: "That's my marmalade." Angus Crock was fantastic at instruction.

By: Shohn

Shohn — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:18:18 -0800

I don't speak Scots. In college, I had a roommate who was from Glasgow, though. On a couple of occasions, his father called for him. I don't know if he spoke Scots, or just heavily accented English. About all I could ever understand was that this was someone who Franc needed to talk to. My roommate did tell me that his father had grown up in the slums of Glasgow, and that his accent was sometimes hard for other Scots to understand.

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:18:29 -0800

It's a weird old thing this desire to enforce a "scots" language. I've no doubt that there, as well as in Wales, there was historically a concerted effort to wipe out the language, and that's inexcusable. Cultural genocide for sure. I'd apologise again, but you'd probably just want to headbutt me. However, it seems dangerous to me to respond to imperialism and cultural genocide by strongly enforcing a stagnating "Scottish Language" which is free from contamination by those Inglish Basterds. Here, in England, I'm damn proud of my Norman-Danish-Celtic-Anglo-Saxon-Latinate mongrel language. I love the fact that I can live in a Bungalow safe in the knowledge that the words I use are laissez-faire. I don't care that perfectly good words are being replaced with words from every other country in the world. I'm also really happy that every time a new word is needed, it just evolves naturally instead of being passed on from high via some nameless angry committee. (e.g. French, Irish, Welsh & Scots).

By: Segundus

Segundus — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:23:38 -0800

Metafilter: squeeze out a skittery wee keech.

By: zamboni

zamboni — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:34:40 -0800

I cannae speak Scots, but I did read But'n'Ben A-Go-Go, a novel notable for bein hailly in the Scots leid. The novelle wis first settin furth in 2000. Accordin tae the author, as mony o the sindry byleids o Scots as possible wis uised, includin mony neologisms - imaginin hou Scots micht hae developit by 2090. The lack o a glossary micht be seen as a baurier, but the feck o the wirds shoud be accessible tae maist Scots readers. The reviewer Stephen Naysmith descrives the byleid uised in the beuk as "a hybrid of Lallans, peppered with wirds from Dundee, Aberdeen and elsewhere".

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:49:23 -0800

Scots is the collective name for Scottish dialects such as 'Glaswegian', 'Doric', 'Buchan', 'Dundonian', or 'Shetland'. Taken altogether, Scottish dialects are called the Scots language. Taken altogether, they're still dialects rather than a language. Scottish Gaelic is a language.

By: TheAlarminglySwollenFinger

TheAlarminglySwollenFinger — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:56:33 -0800

I remember my granddad recalling how he and a mate of his (both from Buckie, a fishing village on the Moray Firth) were on holiday in Spain. They were just chatting away over a few drinks, kept getting looks from a posh English couple on a neighbouring table. Just as they were leaving, saying "guid nicht" to one another, they overheard the English couple say, "God, those Germans get everywhere, aren't they?"

By: Lezzles

Lezzles — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:07:52 -0800

Taken altogether, they're still dialects rather than a language. Actually, linguists cite dialect variation (along with linguistic distinctiveness, individual history, a remarkable literature etc.) as one of the arguments for Scots being a language rather than a dialect.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:08:46 -0800

Taken altogether, they're still dialects rather than a language. I'd always read that it was a language that grew in parallel to English, sharing many of the same roots but still distinct, though I realise it's the subject of debate. You could as well say Gaelic is a dialect of Irish, where the Scots came from, bringing q-Celtic to a region where previously p-Celtic/Pictish had prevailed. It definitely had its own heritage, and was the first Germanic language in which a full modern translation of one of the Greek classics was made, for example.

By: Catseye

Catseye — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:11:36 -0800

Great to see this discussed here. I'm an academic working on Scots, and I really could talk about this all day (but I'll try not to!) The reason modern Scots sounds like it's a patchy, non-standardised, geographically mixed-up language that seems more comfortable with speech than writing is because... it is, really. But there's an awful lot of reasons for that, and they don't add up to Scots being some bastardised, improper form of English. Scots and standard English both originated in Old English, and before 1100AD we don't really distinguish between them. They branch off afterwards, via different routes: Scots developed out of old Northumbrian dialect, and what became Middle English developed out of Mercian. From what we can tell, not all medieval Scots would have seen themselves as speaking a language separate from English, but a significant portion would. And the language they spoke was a complete language, with its own grammatical systems, its own spelling conventions (not standardisation, but this was long before standardisation in English, too), and of course, a great deal of its own vocabulary. Literature was written in Scots, legal documents, acts of Parliament (from the late 1300s); this wasn't the informal, working-class dialect it's often thought of today. For illustration, here's some lines from Gavin Douglas's 1513 translation of the Aeneid:

And thus he sayd: Forsoith I have deserve The deith, I knaw, and or thy hand to sterve Ne wyl I not beseik the me to spare, Use furth thy chance, quhat nedis proces mare? Bot gif that ony cure or thocht, quod he, Of ony woful parent may twiche the, Have reuth and mercy of King Daunus the auld: Thou had forsoith, and I have hard be tauld

Okay, so it's not exactly the Scots you'd see and hear today. But that might have looked a lot more similar if Scotland's political situation had gone differently a few hundred years ago. Scots started to become more and more Anglicised throughout the 16th century, as England became increasingly powerful. You can see influential Scottish figures like John Knox skipping back and forth between Scots and English in their writing. (There's a great line from a Scottish correspondent to Knox criticising him for this: "gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you, in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht acquyntit with your Southeron" [if you've forgotten our old plain Scottish your mother taught you, in future I'll write to you in Latin, for I'm not acquainted with your English]. Ouch.) And then in 1606, King James VI of Scotland became King James I of England, and he and his court moved south to London. James was a poet in his own right - he'd already produced a short guide on writing poetry in Scots at the age of 19 - and his court poets were some of the best-known names of Scottish literature in the period remembered today. But when the court moved down to England, the poets started producing work in English rather than Scots, and even revising their older Scots work to standard English. There was still a small, token parliament in Edinburgh, but most administrative material was now produced in England - and in English. The growing printing industry was based in England. The Bibles that every well-off Scottish family owned were written in English. And as a consequence of all of this, written Scots just started to die. For the next hundred years or so, very little was written in Scots. It still existed as a spoken language, but a written language, a literary language? Not so much. And then came the Act of Union in 1707, which dissolved Scotland's parliament and its status as an independent nation. This was hugely opposed in Scotland, to the level of riots in the streets (although not by everybody - the lawyers of Edinburgh, who'd held an awful lot of power since the 1603 Union, were generally in favour of it, and were rewarded with a clause in the act that let Scotland keep its own legal system. Scots law today is full of Scots words that have fallen out of use in all other areas). There was a huge demand for retaining Scotland's own cultural identity, and the writers of the Vernacular Revival in Scottish literature - of whom Robert Burns is the best-known today - were answering that need. But, writers like Burns (and Allan Ramsay and Robert Fergusson before him, and a whole host of generally-forgotten others) had a tough job. Scots was still spoken, but it hadn't really been a written language for a hundred years, and it had been dying before then. So how do you develop a written Scots, that your audience will find familiar enough to read, but that still echoes its past? Well, you develop a kind of hodge-podge of traditional written Scots, Anglicised grammar, spelling systems designed to indicate how Scottish accents sound, and a geographical mish-mash from all over the country. And that's what they did. So yeah, it's a language, not a dialect or an accent or an inability to Write Properly. It's just had a very interesting history.

By: MuffinMan

MuffinMan — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:18:36 -0800

Best Scottish lines ever: O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us It wad frae monie a blunder free us An' foolish notion What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us An' ev'n Devotion [From Burns - To a Louse]

By: MuffinMan

MuffinMan — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:19:38 -0800

And read by Robert Carlyle...

By: substrate

substrate — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:22:13 -0800

Second year engineering, 1992 and I am taking a course in Engineering Materials. The professor rolls in this tired old projector to play a reel on stress and strain with lots of nice visuals. This is great, most people are visual learners. I am not. I like to hear things, even if it's my internal voice as I read. There is an audio track, which would probably have been good enough except the lecturer spoke with a thick and phlem Scottish brogue. It was English, I could pick out maybe 1 word in 6, but the accent was impenetrable.

By: Eideteker

Eideteker — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:23:30 -0800

"Here, in England, I'm damn proud of my Norman-Danish-Celtic-Anglo-Saxon-Latinate mongrel language. I love the fact that I can live in a Bungalow safe in the knowledge that the words I use are laissez-faire." I'm pretty sure that's all the Scottish are asking for as well.

By: Coobeastie

Coobeastie — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:25:06 -0800

I find the 'Do you speak Scots' question an interesting one. Having lived here for ten years I think that I speak a rather posh English accent (I lost my original accent as people had difficulty understanding me, and went rather RP to compensate). But when I talk to friends in England I'm told that I have a distinctly Scottish accent, along with some dialect words. If there's a box for 'speaks some weird mongrel dialect of own making' I'm ticking that one.

By: ceiriog

ceiriog — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:30:19 -0800

It's a weird old thing this desire to enforce a "scots" language. How is counting the number of Scots speakers indicative of a desire to enforce anything? [English] evolves naturally instead of being passed on from high via some nameless angry committee. (e.g. French, Irish, Welsh & Scots). Can't speak for French, Irish and Scots/Gaelic, but this doesn't happen in Wales, although the myth persists, even here. There is no committee, angry or otherwise, just people using their own language and making new words up (or borrowing from other languages, like English speakers do) when they need to.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:34:03 -0800

I love looking at/reading Scots version of Wikipedia. Saw an interview with a Scots speaking politicians talking about how they'll use Scots on the floor of Parliament to get away with an insult and people won't know what they've said, then he said that as hard as it is for some people to understand him, there's another region where he has difficulty understanding some of the more heavier dialects...

By: LD Feral

LD Feral — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:36:04 -0800

I remember back in the middle grades, we had a Scot chemistry substitute come in. Only half-way through did I realize that I was the only one without the poleaxed look that blessed the rest of the kinder. So I took up translating. Mah gran'ther spake a wee bet, but I ne'er saw et writ unteel dat trainspottin' book. Needless to say- impenetrable to others if I attempt to write! On a related note, in that same class, a fellow was bouncing a quarter off his desk, and while casually wandering the rows, The Scot Sub came up from behind said fellow, snatched the coin from the air and hissed in his ear 'ne'er drop a coin in the hearing of a Scot' gave him a gimlet eye, and wandered back to the desk. Almost had fits there.

By: immlass

immlass — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:39:41 -0800

I don't speak Scots by any means, but I can sing a bit of it after years going to shows by Scottish singers, or just Burns fans. Talk about the shame of a Scots accent and Scots dialect speech reminds me of a business colleague my father knew in the 80s who had a heavy Geordie accent. Like many Americans, I was charmed by just about any British accent, and I (being a kid) said something about it. He was hideously embarrassed and assumed I was having him on. I just didn't know all accents north of London (Scots included) are apparently considered a bit low-class.

By: briank

briank — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:40:33 -0800

I learned most of my contemporary Scots from reading James Kelman; How Late It Was, How Late must be one of the best novels published in the UK in the 20th century. So, erm, good luck to those preserving the language. Jes' what that feckin' cunt says.

By: Kattullus

Kattullus — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:07:28 -0800

awfurby: Note to idiots the world over - do not call someone from Scotland "Scotch". Unless, of course, you are Scotch.

By: theredpen

theredpen — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:23:55 -0800

immlass: "Like many Americans, I was charmed by just about any British accent" This is so funny to me (an American who has spent time in the UK, still completely vulnerable as well). I saw a checkout girl at the grocery store here just about fall down when the guy in front of me spoke in his Scottish accent. It is like American female Viagra for some reason. I hope there are always Scots speakers.

By: jb

jb — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:45:08 -0800

If Scots is a separate language, then I have an easy way to become bilingual! it will be like going from Italian to Spanish, only I already read 17th century English, so I'm halfway there. (more than halfway - I can understand 90% of it written).

By: Decani

Decani — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:49:44 -0800

Aye, but can ye speak Glasgae?

By: jgaiser

jgaiser — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:49:55 -0800

Ack Crivens I cannae speak the Scots, but I ken the Feegle. Nai Laird Nae Quin mbmbmblmbmlmbmelbmmble we wont be fooled again. "Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!"

By: Salamandrous

Salamandrous — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:13:49 -0800

[English] evolves naturally instead of being passed on from high via some nameless angry committee. (e.g. French, Irish, Welsh & Scots). Haha. Our 'angry committee' is capitalist but still elite-dominated publishing companies and textbook manufacturers. Organic evolution, right... (for example, in the US, see the '90s freak-out about Ebonics in classrooms).

By: Molesome

Molesome — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:14:20 -0800

Burnistoun has recently installed voice-operated elevators

By: TheAlarminglySwollenFinger

TheAlarminglySwollenFinger — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:16:21 -0800

One my dad always cracks at the dinner table: "Is that a puddin' or a meringue? Naw, yer richt, it's a puddin'!" He's a fun guy

By: MUD

MUD — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:26:15 -0800

TheAlarminglySwollenFinger, that's one of my dad's faves as well. To the extent that he is often unable to finish saying it before he starts cracking up.

By: knapah

knapah — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:34:05 -0800

A few years back the Northern Ireland Assembly put out an advert to seek an Ulster-Scots > English translator. Here's a letter published in the Belfast Telegraph in response. The salary was £27,764-£30,520.

By: Lezzles

Lezzles — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:35:02 -0800

"Is that a puddin' or a meringue? Naw, yer richt, it's a puddin'!" My Mum's version: "Will you have a cake, Johnny, or a meringue?" "No, you're no wrang missis, I'll have a cake."

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:37:11 -0800

Really? Was that supposed to be a joke? Or are you trolling? I grew up in Scotland and speak Scots. Judging by that website I speak 4 dialects. Where are you from and what's your knowledge on this topic? Fit like the day loon? (See I can speak a proper dialect, not Ubiquitous Chip keech Scots.) Rubbish like this ("If you were brought up to speak a local Scottish dialect, or you have learned to speak the dialect of the area where you have chosen to live, or both, this means that you can speak Scots..") is typical of the habit of dressing up crap as a precious cultural comodity in this dreary, typically Scottish bursary-driven fashion. It ends up sitting alongside all the other highly prized but internationally insignificant cultural deadweights which are so beloved of people who have never spent a significant amount of time in Scotland. They know little of the subject but are happy to pontificate on it because they feel protective of it - on our behalf. What exactly is a local Scottish dialect? If you speak like the other people in your area you speak Scots? What is Scots? It's a corruption of English and a collection of dialects which were loosely categorised under one name. Today it seems to be any way of speaking anywhere in Scotland which relates to the place you live. These classifications are a nothing, the crap on that website will not be recognised by many people in Scotland, they do not speak "Scots." "Scots" today is an artificial construction and judging by the criteria on the website every single inhabitant of Scotland speaks it. So cancel the census.

By: TheAlarminglySwollenFinger

TheAlarminglySwollenFinger — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:38:58 -0800

To the extent that he is often unable to finish saying it before he starts cracking up. Ditto. I think that "meringue" joke is like catnip for middle-aged men of Scottish descent...

By: stuartmm

stuartmm — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:19:09 -0800

re "meringue" joke I remember Andy Cameron telling it every week on a show . Everyone knew the joke was coming and laughed all the same. Sort of like the "i want a maroon shirt for ma roon shoulders"

By: nasreddin

nasreddin — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:55:13 -0800

And then came the Act of Union in 1707, which dissolved Scotland's parliament and its status as an independent nation. This was hugely opposed in Scotland, to the level of riots in the streets (although not by everybody - the lawyers of Edinburgh, who'd held an awful lot of power since the 1603 Union, were generally in favour of it, and were rewarded with a clause in the act that let Scotland keep its own legal system. Scots law today is full of Scots words that have fallen out of use in all other areas). Sorry, but this is a bunch of nationalistic hooey. While at the time it might have been opposed by Scottish crowds (eighteenth-century people rioted at the drop of a hat), one of the main reasons it was passed in the first place was the Scots' own bungled attempt at colonizing Panama--they lost so much money that the English Crown was forced to bail them out. Over the next few decades the Union became one of the basic building blocks of Lowland Scots identity (as opposed to Jacobitism, which gradually died off as the benefits of Union under the Hanoverians became clear). Thanks to the Union Scottish people began to acquire substantial political power and influence in England and the Empire, to such an extent that they became widely resented by the English themselves, leading to mass anti-Scottish riots. In fact, what we now know as a "British," as opposed to "English," national identity or national consciousness was mostly worked out by Scots who were seeking to define their place in the national community. So these latter-day attempts at making the Scots out to be victims of British imperialism are really misconceived, especially since we have in Ireland a pretty glaring example of what that actually would have looked like.

By: quin

quin — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:04:06 -0800

Crivens! I canna speak the "scots" ya bigjobs use, but me kelder tells me I speak verra good Nac Mac Feegle.

By: quin

quin — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:08:34 -0800

Ack Crivens I cannae speak the Scots, but I ken the Feegle. Oh waily waily waily! I've missed me chance to preview

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:28:58 -0800

TheAlarminglySwollenFinger: "To the extent that he is often unable to finish saying it before he starts cracking up. Ditto. I think that "meringue" joke is like catnip for middle-aged men of Scottish descent..." Did you say Man-nip?

By: Catseye

Catseye — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:47:20 -0800

Sorry, but this is a bunch of nationalistic hooey. While at the time it might have been opposed by Scottish crowds (eighteenth-century people rioted at the drop of a hat), one of the main reasons it was passed in the first place was the Scots' own bungled attempt at colonizing Panama--they lost so much money that the English Crown was forced to bail them out. I'm not a nationalist (I'm not even Scottish) and, with respect, I think you've misread what I was saying. The only reason I mentioned the 1707 Act of Union and the resistance to it - which was, indeed, strong at the time - was to ground the Scots vernacular revival in the atmosphere which came about immediately afterwards. There was a great and growing demand for a Scottish cultural identity as a result, and the poetry of people like Allan Ramsay (and later, Robert Burns) is the form that took. Going into detail about the Darien scheme, and the myriad of reasons it failed, is kind of beside the point. (Darien would actually make a fascinating FPP in its own right, though.) I didn't, and wouldn't, say anything about the Scots being 'victims of British imperialism'. I'm really not sure where you're getting that, or why.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:48:04 -0800

Sorry, but this is a bunch of nationalistic hooey. Catseye's summary is broadly true, and it doesn't follow from that outline that the Act of Union was seen as British imperialism - you only have to consider popular ballads like Burns' later Parcel of Rogues to know that there were plenty of Scots well aware they'd been sold out by their own ruling elite after the Darien fuck-up. Agree with your subsequent about the creation of a 'British' identity, but again, that was some Scots rather than all.

By: nasreddin

nasreddin — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:55:12 -0800

I'm not a nationalist (I'm not even Scottish) and, with respect, I think you've misread what I was saying. The only reason I mentioned the 1707 Act of Union and the resistance to it - which was, indeed, strong at the time - was to ground the Scots vernacular revival in the atmosphere which came about immediately afterwards. I think you're right, I did misread you. My point was just that support for Union was quite strong in the years after the initial passing, and this wasn't inauthentic or confined to "Edinburgh lawyers"--the Union did have tangible benefits for a large chunk of Lowland society, even if, like most things in the eighteenth century, it was weighed to benefit the elite.

By: Catseye

Catseye — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 11:01:01 -0800

Yeah, support for it did grow in the following years, and the richer parts of lowland Scotland (and some of the Highlands, too...) did quite well out of the whole arrangement. I do think it's a shame that the 1715 and '45 uprisings got somehow ingrained in popular culture as England vs. Scotland - the truth is a huge amount more complex than that.

By: kalimac

kalimac — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:25:29 -0800

There is no committee, angry or otherwise, just people using their own language and making new words up (or borrowing from other languages, like English speakers do) when they need to. Just seconding this. My friends and I speak a mix of (mostly) English with Welsh and Wenglish peppered in as needed. No one's come beating down the door yet. Even when I use the wrong form of 'ydy'. (I, too, will be curious to see the results of the census.)

By: swimming naked when the tide goes out

swimming naked when the tide goes out — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:12:16 -0800

If someone here really can speak Scots Gaelic, I've got a translation I need done: "You and I have lived our entire lives for this moment." I did get someone else to translate that for me, but I need to verify (uhh...before it gets inked on my body permanently). Therefore, I won't post the other translation I have, so I can compare two independent efforts. :) Thanks!

By: awfurby

awfurby — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:52:42 -0800

Really? Was that supposed to be a joke? Or are you trolling? I grew up in Scotland and speak Scots. Judging by that website I speak 4 dialects. Where are you from and what's your knowledge on this topic? Fit like the day loon? (See I can speak a proper dialect, not Ubiquitous Chip keech Scots.) ok cool so you weren't trolling. I apologise for that insinuation. (Would have been great if you'd posted this comment instead of your first one though.)

By: ersatz

ersatz — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:58:27 -0800

It definitely had its own heritage, and was the first Germanic language in which a full modern translation of one of the Greek classics was made, for example. Virgil wasn't that Greek though. /derail

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:05:22 -0800

* hangs head in shame *

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:40:47 -0800

one of the main reasons it was passed in the first place was the Scots' own bungled attempt at colonizing Panama--they lost so much money that the English Crown was forced to bail them out The English refused all support to the colonists and the bailout was used as a sweetener for the act of union, there was nothing 'forced' about it. @fire and wings - This programming of scots by the government, i'm not too sure if thats entirely cringeworthy, fanons concept of inferiorisation comes into play here and anything that reduces scottish self hatred is surely welcome. Also with the 'i'm scared you'd headbutt me' stuff - that's a very crude bit of characterisation there.

By: robertc

robertc — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:07:59 -0800

And for anyone who still thinks Scottish people speak as if they're from the set of Brigadoon here's a wee dose of Ned culture [NSFW] to set you right. This seems like an excellent opportunity to post some video from one of my favourite telly programs of all time, Chewin' the Fat: And now, the News; Interpreting for the Neds: Rab McGlinchy. On a couple of occasions, his father called for him. I don't know if he spoke Scots, or just heavily accented English. About all I could ever understand was that this was someone who Franc needed to talk to. During my time in Edinburgh I got a job as a bouncer, my first job was at an 'old man pub' which glitzed things up with a karaoke Friday nights. This meant I spent a significant portion of my Friday nights sitting at a bar playing the role of captive audience for some really old, really drunk scotsmen. The first two months I don't think I made out more than two or three distinct words, I spent most of the time guessing when would be the best time to nod, smile or frown. After that I started to pick it up quite well and got to enjoy many lengthy (but sometimes slightly slurred) expositions on the subject of "why the English are such b*st*rds." Within a few years my Mum was accusing me of having a Scottish accent every time I spoke to her on the phone... Going into detail about the Darien scheme, and the myriad of reasons it failed, is kind of beside the point. (Darien would actually make a fascinating FPP in its own right, though.) I enjoyed The Rising Sun, though I've no idea how historically accurate it was. Is there a definitive non-fiction book on the colony? In other words, I'd be quite interested in reading such an FPP.

By: pla

pla — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:53:49 -0800

Decani : Aye, but can ye speak Glasgae? On my first visit to Scotland, last year, I found I had no trouble at all understanding the accent (or language, if it counts as such). Quite pleasant, I thought; and after a few nights of hanging out with the locals in various pubs until the wee hours, I almost fancied I could do a passable version of it. Until Glasgow. Couldn't understand a damned word out of anyone I encountered there.

By: pts

pts — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:51:13 -0800

Okay I know I'm a dumb American but I don't get the meringue joke so will somebody please explain it to me.

By: Joe in Australia

Joe in Australia — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:04:22 -0800

It's funny because meringues are effete foreign muck and would never be eaten by a Real Scotsman. They'd rather eat oatcakes or am-Ah-wrong?

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 23:46:07 -0800

The Darien Disaster by John Prebble was what i started with, Mark Horton did a BBC documentary on the subject also which is pretty unfindable. I've been to the place myself and all thats left is a small cannon and an island called Calidonia. The Kuna indians have a wee tourist centre there and are happy to let you visit the actual site after about a weeks negotiation. Tons of photos of the place but would be self linking.

By: the cuban

the cuban — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 00:45:13 -0800

Get a link to the photos posted ffs. I grew up in Scotland and speak Scots. posted by fire&wings at 8:37 AM on February 28 Really? You must really loath yourself then.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 01:31:19 -0800

Get a link to the photos posted ffs. A sound point well made.

By: dhens

dhens — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 02:05:33 -0800

pts: I think the joke is that "meringue" can be heard as "am I wrong?" (As pointed to somewhat obliquely by Joe in Australia.)

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 02:06:28 -0800

Awww ye fuckers, now I'm gonnae have to go visit Glesga and get blootered with my friends.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 02:11:41 -0800

The Scottish Parliament homepage in Scots! :)

By: molecicco

molecicco — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 03:01:17 -0800

From the above link: We want tae mak siccar that as mony folk as possible can finn oot aboot the Scottish Pairlament Canada does have a large Scottish heritage... and interesting that siccar (similar to the German sicher, for safe/sure/secure) is used for "sure".

By: Rat Spatula

Rat Spatula — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 08:03:09 -0800

I was pleased to learn about foumarts, which have cutty shanks and spreckelt fur.

By: Mo Nickels

Mo Nickels — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 10:20:06 -0800

You're going to really love the Dictionary of Scots Language. It's a real dictionary, not one of those twatful touristy things.

By: Chrysostom

Chrysostom — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 11:27:30 -0800

Joe in Australia: "It's funny because meringues are effete foreign muck and would never be eaten by a Real Scotsman" Surely you meant no true Scotsman.

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:18:28 -0800

So yeah, it's a language, not a dialect or an accent or an inability to Write Properly. It's just had a very interesting history. Reads to me more as though it *was* a language, and is now a set of English dialects and in written form little more than a grimace-inducing set of onomatopoeic spellings with a smallish vocabulary of additional words. The reason the census question strikes such fear is that if the figures are high enough it'll be used as justification for dual signage and official documentation etc, for a dead language (in written form, at least) that most Scots can parse only by vocalising. I hate all that Liz Lochead-style complaining about not being allowed to say "wa'r" instead of "water" at school. The point of language is to enable communication. You grow up near Glasgow and you can choose to speak your native consonants-at-war tongue and thus be mostly impenetrable to anyone living more than 100 miles away, or you can retain most of its idiosyncrasies and charming phrasing but soften some of the edges to take part in one of the world's global tongues. Speaking as someone who has tried and failed to order a hamburger in a McDonald's, I know what I'd pick.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:24:46 -0800

Get a link to the photos posted ffs. would be a self link.

By: knapah

knapah — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 07:39:43 -0800

Including a link to your own site in a comment is okay provided that it has some relevance to the topic being discussed and is not your only form of site participation. Random off-topic insertions of self-links into other posts are discouraged and such links may be removed.

By: johnny novak

johnny novak — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 13:04:22 -0800

Some stories about salmon fishing, and podcasts thereof, in the Morayshire Doric. (This is a self link, and my accent isn't what it was since I moved south, but it might help people understand something about how the Doric sounds.)

By: the cuban

the cuban — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 14:19:17 -0800

would be a self link. Plenty of people self link if it's pertinent to the discussion. Maybe your photos are shite?

By: mippy

mippy — Fri, 11 Mar 2011 04:25:59 -0800

I hate all that Liz Lochead-style complaining about not being allowed to say "wa'r" instead of "water" at school. Well now. I grew up in Lancashire. My parents were from Liverpool; I went to school with people whose families had never left the town we were in. Friends would constantly make fun of me for 'talking posh' by saying things like 'expensive' rather than 'dear' and 'a pair of shoes' rather than 'some shoes'. Yet when I moved south, and joined an industry dominated by very middle-class people, even the well-travelled struggle to understand me. (And I've struggled to order food abroad - I had a speech impediment as a kid that very occasionally pops up when speaking English, and constantly for any tongue that involves rolling the R.) I have a colleague from Ulster - to him, Southern girls all sound the same. Whatever you speak, people who don't speak it too will get confused, and possibly even treat you as a novelty. My OH is from Fife and his dad has an incredibly strong accent, packed with dialectal words - not sure if he considers himself a 'Scots speaker' though.

By: serazin

serazin — Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:37:04 -0800

Wow. Thank you so much for posting this - I just found it. My dad is from the Borders. I grew up in California, and only visited Scotland once, 20 years ago, and have almost no frame of reference for my dad's childhood or cultural background. He doesn't talk much about himself, which I guess is how it is for men of his era and from that part of the world. And by "doesn't talk much about himself" I mean, says nothing, ever, about his childhood, parents, cultural traditions, education, or anything else. Very rarely, every few years or so, after a couple beers, I can extract a story or two about his punishing primary school experiences, or how he'd hunt rabbits from the fields as the farmers did their mowing, or his coal miner uncle who was covered head to toe in black dust. But it's not often and it's not much. I happen to be visiting my parents right now, and when I found this thread and showed my dad the site we listened to some of the Borders speakers together. He got this kind of far away look, and smiled a little listening to the stories. And he told me a little story about how he and his friends used to make fun of the dialects from towns 20 miles from his - he even told the story about spelling e-g-y-p-t that's on the site before we listened to someone say it there. And then he went to his book shelf and got down some Border Ballads and some Hugh M'Diarmid and started reciting poems. Stuff he learned by heart in primary school and maybe hasn't said out loud since, reciting from memory as I read along. It was a really special sweet moment that we don't get very often. Then he went back to his breakfast. It wasn't much, but it meant a lot to me. So thank you so much for this post.

By: alasdair

alasdair — Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:48:52 -0800

awfurby Note to idiots the world over - do not call someone from Scotland "Scotch". It's a perfectly good word and was widely used. However, it has fallen out of fashion in the UK. You're better off using "Scots" but I hope you'll never find anyone rude enough to think that you, a foreigner, are an idiot for using it. I hope in return you'll forgive using "Yank" to refer to a Southerner or not realising that watermelon is a racially-loaded food, for example.

By: _paegan_

_paegan_ — Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:36:31 -0800

My grandmother, who lived with my family the last few years before her death, emigrated to the US from Scotland as a young woman. We lived those years of my early childhood in a small Arizona town and my school had a challenging time with a lot of my special needs - one being that I seemed to have my own "made up" language no one understood, i.e. I was the primary school crazy-girl. I lived the (mild) shame of that for decades until, in my 30s, I again encountered a native Scot and heard my own, long forgotten, "made up" language coming out his mouth. It never occurred to any authority in my school to check if there was a non-english speaker in the home (other than Spanish).