Comments on: "like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake"

"like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake"

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:00:21 -0800

Jane Marie says, "Don't tell me not to get a fucking neck tattoo." Second generation tattooer Tim Hendricks responds: "Holding a job at a shop that has a long standing good reputation means that you have to follow by certain unwritten laws, a code of 'tattoo ethics' if you will. One of these codes is to try and be a good judge of whether or not someone might regret a tattoo or not."

Mel, the assistant, greeted us and just had a few words of warning for me. She said that neck and hand tattoos were "game changers" and that if she had it to do over, she wouldn't have some of her hand tattoos. I was still pretty upset, so I'm not sure if I told her about the advent of lasers or just thought it. I think I said something like, "I get it. I still want it." Here are some examples of still-visible tattoos after laser tattoo removal sessions.

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:04:00 -0800

Don't tell me not to tell you not to get a fucking neck tattoo. Don't get a neck tattoo.

By: prize bull octorok

prize bull octorok — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:05:16 -0800

what if the neck tattoo is party dog

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:06:54 -0800

what if the neck tattoo is party dog Oh well see now that is a different thing altogether.

By: holborne

holborne — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:06:57 -0800

The artist who did the one on my right arm told me that in general, he is very reluctant to do name tattoos anywhere, and if he does them, he'll only do them very, very small so they can be covered. He came to this conclusion, he said, after someone came in to get a name covered, and it turned out to be the name of her daughter; apparently, the two had become estranged. Said it gave him pause.

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:07:00 -0800

what if the neck tattoo is party dog [drops an octave lower]...what if it's Dickbutt?

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:08:10 -0800

Absolutely get whatever tattoo you want. But tattoos are kind of a collaborative art thing, right? If the artist doesn't want to do something, and they take your money anyway, you're going to get bad art.

By: roomthreeseventeen

roomthreeseventeen — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:08:34 -0800

I have six tattoos, but I don't think I could even sit still for one on my neck.

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:10:16 -0800

Jane Marie says, "Don't tell me not to get a fucking neck tattoo."

Hey, knock yourself out.

By: danny the boy

danny the boy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:10:18 -0800

As my friend remarked, how is this an article and not just another whiny, entitled yelp review? Good response by Tim though.

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:13:01 -0800

Also, mainstream culture LOOOOVES to use tattoos as negative class signifiers, so I am completely unsurprised that tattoo artists are nervous about this sort of thing. I had never thought about it before, but even if I was talented in that way, I don't think I could handle the responsibility of doing tattoos.

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:13:09 -0800

My experience with tattoos is that people who imbue them with significant meaning almost never regret them, regardless of content or location, while people whose goal is "have a tattoo" almost always regret them, regardless of content or location. The only person I know who had a deeply meaningful tattoo who later regretted it got his wife's name tattooed on the ring finger of his left hand. They're now divorced.

By: padraigin

padraigin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:14:43 -0800

I generally really like Jane Marie but I think she really needs to walk this back, like, a mile or two. Posting pictures of the guy's other work so it could be mocked was just childish.

By: Shepherd

Shepherd — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:17:26 -0800

[me] Say, artist, can I commission you to do this piece of art for me? [artist] No, I choose not to do that particular piece of art. [me] FUUUUCK YOOOUUUUU {writes 5,000 words on the Internet} You can't be both "tattoos are special and magical and those who create them have unicorn souls" and "do what I tell you when I tell you to do it, plebeian service-person with modest technical skills". If a tattoo artist is an artist, the artist gets to decide what art they want to participate in. Trying to spend several hundred words honouring the noble profession and then get huffy when you treat one such "artist" like some guy you hired to paint your fence (and throwing in barely veiled accusations of misogyny, to boot) is beyond incongruous, it's churlish.

By: a lungful of dragon

a lungful of dragon — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:17:37 -0800

"A neck tattoo on someone without a lot of tattoos is like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake." - Tattoo artist Checkmate.

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:19:31 -0800

Also, mainstream culture LOOOOVES to use tattoos as negative class signifiers, so I am completely unsurprised that tattoo artists are nervous about this sort of thing. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but doesn't "neck tattoo" actually now more often signify "I am comfortably wealthy and am able to do whatever I want to my body" more than it signifies "I am a low class criminal and will hurt you if given the chance"? Some tattoos -- tribal tattoos, for example -- are probably still negative signifiers. I dunno -- I think tattoos can signal lots of different things, particularly in combination with the clothes a person wears, but the idea of pop culture always writing off tattoos as negative class signifiers just doesn't square anymore, I don't think.

By: josher71

josher71 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:20:28 -0800

Yeah, I can see why this situation vexed her but you just take your business elsewhere and that's that.

By: josher71

josher71 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:21:05 -0800

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but doesn't "neck tattoo" actually now more often signify "I am comfortably wealthy and am able to do whatever I want to my body" Not to me in most situations.

By: Mitrovarr

Mitrovarr — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:21:15 -0800

I think the real issue might be what society thinks about someone with neck tattoos: Person with tattoos all over: "This person really likes tattoos". Person with only neck tattoo: "This person had been to prison."

By: Pogo_Fuzzybutt

Pogo_Fuzzybutt — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:22:01 -0800

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but doesn't "neck tattoo" actually now more often signify "I am comfortably wealthy and am able to do whatever I want to my body" more than it signifies "I am a low class criminal and will hurt you if given the chance"? I imagine that this will vary depending on locale. Here in the southwest.... it's a good signifier of someone who is prone to making poor life choices. When I was in Madison, WI, this was less reliably the case.

By: maryr

maryr — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:22:30 -0800

I wish someone had refused my sister when she got her neck tattoo. It's on the very back of her neck near her hairline, so theoretically it might not be noticed with the right haircut. However, she's a nurse - a career involving wearing your hair up and a lot of bending over in a way that I'm concerned patients my think poorly of her, especially as she works primarily in nursing home. Also her neck tattoo is a friggin' shamrock which I would personally put in the tribal tattoo school of classiness. (Although maybe the shamrock has a hidden meaning, other than our vaguely Irish heritage, that I am not privy to. That would make a difference to me. But come on, we're only like a quarter Irish.) Meanwhile, she got an ankle tattoo at the same time that I absolutely love. It's pretty, it's easy to cover or show off, and it's very meaningful for her.

By: peterpete

peterpete — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:22:49 -0800

She intimated sexism but I didn't see much sexism in her evidence. To me it just seems like capitalist entitlement. "I have money and am seeking a service. You're a service provider and are therefore obligated to say yes to me, a potential customer."

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:22:56 -0800

"A neck tattoo on someone without a lot of tattoos is like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake." Checkmate. Eh, I hardly feel like this is a game-ending zinger. It's fine that this is HIS view of tattoos, and it's doubly-fine that he sets his own rules about what he will and will not do in his own shop. But count me in as someone who thinks a single tattoo (or tiny sprinkling of them) in any location is just as valid as a body full of art. Honestly I've often thought that the neck is a PERFECT spot to pick if you know you pretty much just want one awesome tattoo. But I tend to travel in circles where tattoos have little to no impact on peoples' impressions of you.

By: Phredward

Phredward — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:23:08 -0800

If you're going to write a rebuttal article: if the first article contains the question "Would you say this to a guy?" maybe skip writing the line "when your drunken 18 year old daughter goes into a tattoo shop and wants a big name on her neck, then tell me our rules are silly".

By: Lucinda

Lucinda — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:23:17 -0800

I can't help but draw parallels to women wanting to have their tubes tied at a young age who must go through hoops and hoops and hoops to have the procedure done.

By: Thing

Thing — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:23:35 -0800

If this woman was seeking to convince me she was wronged, she failed pretty hard. Tattooists should simply reply, "we don't offer that service", and refuse to engage. Me: "Would you say this to a guy?" Dan luh-hiterally paused, looked askance, and said with a slight nod, unconvincingly, "Yeah." This is a really shitty thing for her to have written. She doesn't prove it any more than insinuate it.

By: okayokayigive

okayokayigive — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:24:28 -0800

Person with tattoos all over: "This person really likes tattoos". Person with only neck tattoo: "This person had been to prison." I think it depends on the style of tattoo, though, to a certain extent. I dated someone once who had a gorgeous fine-line sun on the back of her neck. It was mostly covered by her hair, but uncovered, it was a work of art.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:25:33 -0800

Some tattoos -- tribal tattoos, for example -- are probably still negative signifiers. Like jail tattoos, ya think ?

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:25:48 -0800

If this woman was seeking to convince me she was wronged, she failed pretty hard. Tattooists should simply reply, "we don't offer that service", and refuse to engage. Yeah but his instagram full of enormous tattoos he has put on someone's FACE would put the lie to that answer pretty fast. He's still entitled to say it, but I'm not thinking her suspicions of him having some double standards there are super off-base.

By: General Tonic

General Tonic — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:26:22 -0800

I think if the bar for getting a neck tattoo is "you might have to ask more than one artist before you find one willing to do it" then that's probably OK.

By: OHenryPacey

OHenryPacey — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:27:41 -0800

As with so many things, you can't save people from themselves.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:27:43 -0800

Honestly, I'm a little confused by the ultimate point the first article is trying to make. So she goes to a tattoo parlor who refuses to do neck tattoos on people who are not heavily tattooed already. She tries to turn it into a sexism issue by asking the tattoo artist if that policy is consistent among both male and female customers. He acknowledges that it is, but somehow she just knows, intuitively, that he's lying? She then ends the article with what I can only assume is supposed to be evidence that the tattoo artist was being insincere by posting a bunch of examples of his work, curiously, none of which are neck tattoos (admittedly, one was a face tattoo, but on a person who clearly fits the "already heavily tattooed" prerequisite), so if this was supposed to prove some sort of hypocrisy in his policy, I'm missing it. This was not the "MIC DROP" moment I assume she thinks it was.

By: peterpete

peterpete — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:28:02 -0800

This reminds me of a guy who started to get involved in the local punk community, got his first tattoo on his neck and was thereafter known as Neck.

By: everybody had matching towels

everybody had matching towels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:30:00 -0800

I wish someone had refused my sister when she got her neck tattoo. It's on the very back of her neck near her hairline, so theoretically it might not be noticed with the right haircut I have a tattoo right in that spot (a word, in latin, which I studied). It rules. It's tied for favorite tattoo with all my other tattoos. If someone thinks less of me for having it, oh well! But even if it didn't have a personal meaning: I'm a grown woman and am not interested in anyone else's opinions of what I do with my body.

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:31:38 -0800

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but doesn't "neck tattoo" actually now more often signify "I am comfortably wealthy and am able to do whatever I want to my body" Only in movies starring Vin Diesel or The Rock.

By: almostmanda

almostmanda — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:31:45 -0800

This reminds me of a guy who started to get involved in the local punk community, got his first tattoo on his neck and was thereafter known as Neck. Is this him?

By: ocschwar

ocschwar — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:32:24 -0800

Please add this to the guidelines for ethical tattooing: !!!gnirettel werbeH oN

By: agregoli

agregoli — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:32:30 -0800

People can be pretty precious about tattoos. This article is the most precious thing I've seen in a long time though. Get over yourself, there a million tattoo shops that will do this very basic sounding work for you.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:32:38 -0800

Should have doubled down and gotten CHI-TONW.

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:32:41 -0800

Dude at my office has full sleeves, but the one that kills me is the skull and crossbones on his neck, behind his ear. I'm like, you're a fucking database engineer, not a member of MS-13.

By: gentian

gentian — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:33:40 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they?

By: overglow

overglow — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:35:26 -0800

There might be something that I'm missing, but it's not really like the tattoo artist was trying to control what she was doing with her body but more like stating how he was comfortable interacting with her body, which is an important distinction.

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:35:54 -0800

This article is the most precious thing I've seen in a long time though. Get over yourself How funny would it have been if she was trying to get the name of her favorite band on her neck: Veruca Salt?

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:36:36 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they? They can't sue and win, most likely (and you do sign waivers), but that won't stop them from being assholes who make the artist's life difficult for awhile. Plus, they might badmouth the artist, and a lot of artists rely on good word of mouth and reputation. Plus everything people have said above about them being, you know, artists, who want their body of work to represent them well. But note that the artist in this story didn't object because he thought she'd regret it. He objected because he thought it would "look tacky" and because she basically wasn't self-evidently hardcore enough for a neck tat.

By: CrystalDave

CrystalDave — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:36:49 -0800

(admittedly, one was a face tattoo, but on a person who clearly fits the "already heavily tattooed" prerequisite), so if this was supposed to prove some sort of hypocrisy in his policy, I'm missing it. The face tattoo wasn't his, it's a rather famous tattoo on Gucci Mane (reportedly). His was the copy of it on an arm/leg on the left. They can't sue the artist, can they? So many tattoo lawsuits out there.

By: holborne

holborne — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:37:29 -0800

They can't sue the artist, can they? No, probably not successfully. But they can sure tell people where they got the work done, and if a disgruntled customer tells enough people about being disgruntled.... Obviously, not everyone will place blame on the artist, but no sense having upset customers mentioning your name frequently in connection with the reason they're upset.

By: jfuller

jfuller — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:37:37 -0800

Person with full-face skull tattoo: "This person is a psychopath, don't make eye contact."

By: MisantropicPainforest

MisantropicPainforest — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:37:41 -0800

I used to date El-P. Everything makes sense now, yes? HAHA. Yes it does now! I liked this.

By: louche mustachio

louche mustachio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:38:56 -0800

I have a tattoo on the back of my neck, but I don't think of it as a "neck tattoo." When I think of a "neck tattoo" I imagine a tattoo that goes up or around the neck in a way that would be very difficult to cover. Every artist I have ever worked with has pretty clear policies regarding what they will not do and who they will not work on. Some of these policies are not negotiable (such as not tattooing people who are drunk or underage) some are more flexible. If you can plead your case convincingly enough and aren't an asshole about it, you can get your tattoo. You are less likely to get your way if you feel like you are somehow entitled, and you will extra not get your way if you make thinly veiled accusations. Tattoo artists need customers, but they don't need customers who are overly demanding or who treat them poorly.

By: Thing

Thing — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:40:16 -0800

Yeah but his instagram full of enormous tattoos he has put on someone's FACE would put the lie to that answer pretty fast. He's still entitled to say it, but I'm not thinking her suspicions of him having some double standards there are super off-base. Gucci Mane's face tattoo was done by Shane Willoughby of Tenth Street Tattoo in Atlanta, not by Dan at NY Adorned. As CrystalDave pointed out, Dan only did the tribute (seemingly on a leg or arm).

By: jim in austin

jim in austin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:40:38 -0800

Almost every day I'll see someone walk past and all I can think is, "So many bad decisions..."

By: louche mustachio

louche mustachio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:41:50 -0800

That's me!

By: Greg Nog

Greg Nog — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:42:45 -0800

Almost every day I'll see someone walk past and all I can think is, "So many bad decisions..." Thanks for your input jim

By: louche mustachio

louche mustachio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:44:35 -0800

I made lots of my worst decisions in Austin. Great town for bad decisions.

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:44:38 -0800

I really think it's possible to talk about the artist/client relationship issue here without having the "haha tattoed people!" thing again, for the nine millionth time.

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:44:53 -0800

Almost every day I'll see someone walk past and all I can think is, "So many bad decisions..." You should probably think about living somewhere that isn't Austin.

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:44:56 -0800

Almost every day I'll see someone walk past and all I can think is, "So many bad decisions..." I think that almost every day even if I don't see anybody.

By: sciatrix

sciatrix — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:46:04 -0800

In memory of the last tattoo thread, can we not let this one descend into a commentary on which tattoo placements are "classy" and therefore all right, and which are "trashy" and a class marker of terrible decisions? I don't have tattoos myself, but plenty of my friends do--some of whom have easily visible ones, some who don't. It's worth keeping in mind that people with tattoos in the placements we're discussing are probably right here in the room.

By: feckless fecal fear mongering

feckless fecal fear mongering — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:46:29 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they? Because regret indicates that you have, in some measure, failed at your art.

By: boo_radley

boo_radley — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:46:33 -0800

a decent tattoo artist isn't going to ruin his rep on some rando who swears up and down she knows what she wants.

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:46:35 -0800

[Hi folks, yes, it would be great if we could skip the blanket negative statements about tattooed people, since they walk among us right here on this very website.]

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:46:52 -0800

...why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they Reputation and professional ethics, mostly. I worked next door to a place that tattooed whatever the drunk-ass people who wandered in wanted and man I turned down free work from them because that is so goddamn shady. Also the I saw the (not visibly tattooed) artist who offered me the free work in my neighborhood a few months later. He had quit his job as a shady tattoo artist and was now going to a scammy real estate "school." This was around 2007.

By: rtha

rtha — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:47:24 -0800

I have a visceral reaction to neck tattoos, but it's not because they're visible, it's just because I immediately begin to think about how it would feel to get one (and I have several tattoos, so I know!) and I can kind of feel my neck trying to run away. I get the same feeling about tattoos on the tops of feet. I think it was here that I saw a gallery of photos of facial tattoos (all Maori) and it made me want one so much. I'm not that brave, though.

By: Nevin

Nevin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:49:27 -0800

Also, mainstream culture LOOOOVES to use tattoos as negative class signifiers, Which is really weird, since they cost so damn much. I couldn't afford one. I used to work at a moving company as a swamper, and I worked with the lowest of the low in society. Where I'm from anyway swampers are mostly high school dropouts and ex-cons. Anyway, the ex-cons I worked with could never afford tattoos and instead have prison tattoos, the ones you do yourself with a pencil. Any other kind of tattoo just signifies middle class aspirations.

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:49:59 -0800

I think the real issue might be what society thinks about someone with neck tattoos: That they're a bishop? 'Ere, is that rat tart?

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:51:02 -0800

Should have doubled down and gotten CHI-TONW. SO! I heard this story secondhand, and I do not know how true it is or not, but whatever. At some shop, in Chicago, a big fuck-off biker walked in and asked for a big bicep tattoo that said CHICAGO. So the artist starts doing it and he finishes and suddenly realizes oh shit he tattooed CHICHAGO onto this enormous motorcycling enthusiast. And he's like I'm doomed, this man is going to literally murder me in my store. And the biker apparently laughed it off and the guy covered it up with, if I am recalling this story correctly, "an Iron Cross or something" and the guy left. The next day he showed up with some friends, ripped a thing of flash down and spraypainted the word CHICAGO right onto the wall and told the guy he'll probably remember how to spell it from now on.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:51:22 -0800

The face tattoo wasn't his, it's a rather famous tattoo on Gucci Mane (reportedly). His was the copy of it on an arm/leg on the left. Ah, thanks for the clarification (even if it did make me feel like an out of touch old man). That makes her narrative choice in this essay appear even odder. "I'm going to prove this tattoo artist with a 'No Neck Tattoos' policy is a hypocrite....by showing a bunch of tattoos he's done on peoples arms and backs"?

By: ChurchHatesTucker

ChurchHatesTucker — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:51:40 -0800

But note that the artist in this story didn't object because he thought she'd regret it. He objected because he thought it would "look tacky" and because she basically wasn't self-evidently hardcore enough for a neck tat. Those aren't mutually exclusive. At all.

By: Chuffy

Chuffy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:51:40 -0800

She was told, by 3 different people, that they would probably not "let" her get a neck tattoo at that shop. They explained their reasoning. None of those pics of tattoos on men she posted were of their necks. The guy with the face tattoo has other visible tattoos, in keeping with their statement about not doing those on people who don't already have many tats... I understand her position on it, but I disagree with her approach, and I'm not convinced that it was what she says it was. Sounds to me like an indignant person who couldn't communicate why she wanted the tat, and confirmed her immaturity by her response and the conclusions she drew. Services not rendered by Dan. OK. I wasn't there, but he, as an artist, has a different perspective than I do...and, IMO, he has the right to refuse to provide a service he doesn't want to do. I bet he's glad to not have to deal with her again. On the other hand, sure...do whatever you want to your body, but in this instance, somebody has to do it to your body at your request. If he messes up, does a poor job, it comes back to him in spades...and he has the freedom to choose not to do work on someone. How's this for an analogy? Dan could say he doesn't do swastika tattoos on someone's forehead because it's racist. The customer could then say that he's a racist because he put an ice cream cone on a black guy's face...doesn't make it true.

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:52:53 -0800

This is not surprising at all. I got a tattoo when I was 18 and the artist had a "rule": If you aren't already heavily tatted I won't do anything that can't be covered by a long sleeved shirt (No hands, neck, face). I guess the idea is/was to let people ease into that sort of thing, get a few see how it goes and if you want to step your game up later then come back.

By: rtha

rtha — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:53:53 -0800

> Any other kind of tattoo just signifies middle class aspirations. Or people with friends who are artists, or who are just starting out, or with whom they barter for ink. Jeez, dude, you need to get out more.

By: sciatrix

sciatrix — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:55:37 -0800

Regarding the actual article: the thing, in context, I see pretty clearly why she's thinking "sexism" here. After all, being a woman means having to deal with double standards about your body and about your appearance constantly; tattoos combine both of those pretty efficiently. The artist's discomfited pause when she asked directly if that was an issue also screamed to me that she was probably not off the mark in thinking that sexism was playing a role in this instance of gatekeeping about her body and appearance, too. Especially given that his reasoning for refusing her the tattoo was that it would "look tacky." I heavily suspect that insulting her aesthetic sense did not do this dude any favors; if he's primarily concerned about liability from clients who regret the work, fucking phrase it as "For liability reasons we do not do neck tattoos at this studio" or possibly "For liability reasons we do not do neck tattoos as first tattoos" or "we require a three-month waiting period before doing a neck tattoo" or whatever. And post that shit on your website, too, so people who do do their due research aren't surprised by it. On the other hand, if he's got a blanket no-neck-tats rule he's got a blanket no-neck-tats rule, and the examples she's posted of his instagram work don't really refute that. I'm not really thrilled by her going "oh, you don't do tacky? Let me show you tacky" and indirectly insulting the tastes of the tattoo recipients he has done, even if I totally get why she got mad enough to do it. Bleh.

By: zippy

zippy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:56:19 -0800

This intersection of "it's my body, and I want a professional to do a thing for me without shaming me" and "I'm a professional, and I don't want to do things you or I will regret" is fascinating.

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:56:59 -0800

Any other kind of tattoo just signifies middle class aspirations. Uh you do realize that people become friends with their tattoo artists and get free/discounted work, right? One of my biggest regrets is not taking up one of my friends on her offer of tattooing me for practice back when she was trying to break in. My wife (whom this friend of mine had introduced me to) has a huge one from her that says "GODDAMN MINNESOTA" on her upper thigh-area and I think that is a super rad memento of a friend.

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:57:10 -0800

Almost every day I'll see someone walk past and all I can think is, "So many bad decisions..." I have a similar experience, except walking past mirrors.

By: Ratio

Ratio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:57:25 -0800

I don't know whether or not to get a tattoo or not.

By: ernielundquist

ernielundquist — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:00:01 -0800

I think she goes over the line in implying sexism AND naming him. I'd be OK with either-or, but assigning someone a motivation like that and calling them out directly isn't something that should be done lightly. That's an awful thing to accuse someone of, especially as a kneejerk reaction to a single, subtle interaction. Tattoo artists make their own ethical decisions for their own reasons. I know a lot (I hope most to nearly all) reputable tattoo artists won't do Nazi stuff. Tons of them won't do neck, hands, or face, and even more won't do the first neck, hand, or face. And it is entirely possible that some make individual decisions that are influenced by some flavor of bigotry. If you want to talk about that, do it generically.

By: atoxyl

atoxyl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:04:33 -0800

I mean she's probably right that being a woman makes it more likely they'll put you on the "nothing too hardcore" list. c.f. this: If you're going to write a rebuttal article: if the first article contains the question "Would you say this to a guy?" maybe skip writing the line "when your drunken 18 year old daughter goes into a tattoo shop and wants a big name on her neck, then tell me our rules are silly" And it's even understandable to be offended in the moment by the whole - "as professionals it's our business to swiftly judge your appearance" attitude. But it also seems like common sense that no, you don't actually get to decide. And it's not a rule that was made up on the spot for her.

By: Jughead

Jughead — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:04:34 -0800

It's been pointed out here already, but getting a tattoo isn't like getting your house painted... I have more than a few myself, and in every case, the artist gave me invaluable feedback both on placement and on design. My backpiece started as a rather intricate design intended for my shoulder, but the artist told me it would hold up better and for longer if I went bigger and moved it to my back. And he was absolutely correct... Twenty years on, and it's still one of my favourite pieces. If he had said, "fuck it, the customer is always right" and done what I had asked him to do, I would have been stuck with a blobby black mess on my shoulder that would be damn near impossible to cover up or laser off. Any idiot can apply a tattoo... but a real artist collaborates with his or her client.

By: madajb

madajb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:08:08 -0800

I don't know whether or not to get a tattoo or not. If you do, make sure you get it in the right location. Definitely do not get it in the wrong location.

By: jim in austin

jim in austin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:03 -0800

By: prize bull octorok

prize bull octorok — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:46 -0800

If you do, make sure you get it in the right location. Definitely do not get it in the wrong location. and make sure it's classy

By: restless_nomad

restless_nomad — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:47 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? My tattooist refused to do names other than those of your parents or kids because she hated doing coverups, and before she had that policy she almost invariably was asked to cover up the work later on when the relationship broke up. Any idiot can apply a tattoo... but a real artist collaborates with his or her client. This is totally true in my experience too - my primary tattooist was an art school grad with some definite chops who was pretty serious about making good art in collaboration with her client. She was talented and popular enough that she just didn't have to tat up drunken idiots who wandered in on Saturday nights - she was appointment-only and booked for *months* out.

By: box

box — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:10:01 -0800

Friendly reminder: this Metatalk post wasn't even a month ago,

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:10:26 -0800

"when your drunken 18 year old daughter goes into a tattoo shop and wants a big name on her neck, then tell me our rules are silly" A lot of people are pointing out the use of "daughter" as evidence of the hidden tattoo-world sexism Jane Marie is trying to point out. That may be true, but keep in mind the word she was trying to get on her neck was her daughter's name, and she never mentions a son. I think he may have been referring to the author's real world daughter.

By: BlackLeotardFront

BlackLeotardFront — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:14:30 -0800

I had a conversation along these lines a month or two ago with a couple heavily tattooed acquaintances and someone who was curious about them. One of the tattooed folks' pieces of advice was "don't get neck, face, or hand tattoos unless you're really sure, and even then only if you're already heavily tattooed." Their reasoning wasn't just aesthetic - there are repercussions in daily life, jobs that won't get gotten, people who will treat you differently, things you'll have to do (like wear long sleeves at work or whatever), all stuff that yes, shouldn't be issues, but unfortunately just are. It sucks, but that's one more layer the tattooer must think about - "does this person seem to have adequately considered the consequences of this act?"

By: corb

corb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:14:44 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they? No, but some people just have personal ethical standards.

By: jayder

jayder — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:14:59 -0800

From a fascinated outsider to the world of tattoos -- why would the artist care if the tattoo-ee regrets it? They can't sue the artist, can they? posted by gentian at 10:33 AM on June 11 [1 favorite +] [!] It speaks very well of the artist that they do not want to give people tattoos that they expect the person will likely regret in the future, will look bad, or will limit the person's chances in life if they don't already have a ton of tattoos that suggest they are mindful of the risks of getting tats in widely stigmatized spots like the neck. Not because of bad publicity, but because they don't want to put stuff in the world that hurts or limits people. To abide by ethics like that would be a real show of professionalism by the tattoo artist. I mean, does Jane Marie really think it makes sense for him turn down her perfectly good money just for the chance to be a dick? Jane Marie's piece seems like a total fail. An attempt to call out the tattoo artist and make him look like a sexist dick, the actual result is that she looks like an idiot and he looks like a consummate professional being unjustly targeted on a highly trafficked blog. I hope he prospers from this publicity.

By: sciatrix

sciatrix — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:16:15 -0800

To be honest, even if he was referring to her real-life daughter, that's still a pretty fucking insulting comparison to make--and it does actually have sexist overtones that I wouldn't get if he referred to her son, because he's invoking a tradition of (at least attempted) parental control of daughters that sons aren't expected to put up with. I rather agree with ernie that her post wasn't as well aimed as it might have been, but I completely understand why she was so angry. I sympathize with the fears of tattoo artists too, of course; but I mean, they're the business people and they should by now have figured out a way to say "I am not comfortable with doing this" without openly insulting prospective clientele. Yes, even the completely clueless ones. That's your job as a service professional.

By: poffin boffin

poffin boffin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:17:54 -0800

The best thing about having a neck tattoo is that its very existence so easily allows me to exclude undesirable people from my life. the second best is that i had it for almost 2 years before my mom even noticed it

By: Frowner

Frowner — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:18:21 -0800

I dunno, I initially assumed that by "neck tattoo" she meant something really large and obvious on the front of her neck. I do sometimes see those on people and they give me a little bit of pause. They're almost always on people who seem to have had few life choices to begin with, it's their business anyway and I don't actually think they look bad, so whatever, but I do notice. But all this person wanted was a small cursive word on the side of her neck. That's what dermablend is for, if needed, and it seems like it would be all right for almost anyone in a creative profession in any case. One might still end up regretting it, but one might regret any tattoo. I hate to say this because I've got this really old pair of sterling gauged ear plugs from Adorned that are fantastic, but I think this was a bad call, given that the policy seems to be "neck tattoos sometimes based on my judgment" rather than "no neck tattoos", and I think telling someone that their potential tattoo is tacky is also a poor judgment call. At the same time, that's how artisan production works - in general, I prefer less coercion of artists (and labor generally) rather than more, and more rather than less worker control of their work. Admittedly, part of me yearns for the days of Not Internet when this was just "I went to Adorned to get a tattoo and the guy was kind of a dick, I'm going to talk about this when I meet my friends at the bar" rather than a national tattoo issue.

By: josher71

josher71 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:18:38 -0800

He made some sexist comments. She got angry. She went somewhere else. She got the tattoo. The end.

By: kafziel

kafziel — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:20:43 -0800

I feel like, if I were running a primarily word-of-mouth business like a tattoo parlor, and I were suddenly asked "Would you say this to a guy?" out of the blue like that - and probably in a manner to state very clearly that whatever I answer, the person asking believes the true answer is no anyway - I would be taken aback by the question too. Probably wouldn't have a canned response ready. Of course, we're hearing exactly one side of the story written "a few weeks" later, so you have to question whether the quotes are particularly verbatim. Seems improbable that the whole of the explanation really was "It'll look tacky".

By: poffin boffin

poffin boffin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:21:31 -0800

when your drunken 18 year old daughter goes into a tattoo shop and wants a big name on her neck, then tell me our rules are silly and really, this is a fucking moronic statement because it comes off like they WOULD tattoo a drunk teen guy, which makes them an irresponsible and frankly reprehensible establishment. pro tip never get work done in a place where you see drunk people getting work done.

By: josher71

josher71 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:23:26 -0800

eally, this is a fucking moronic statement because it comes off like they WOULD tattoo a drunk teen guy It does? I don't get that reading at all.

By: MoxieProxy

MoxieProxy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:24:44 -0800

Regardless of your opinion, I believe Jane Marie, like most Gawker/Jezebel bloggers, is paid by the click. so she had a very good day!

By: desuetude

desuetude — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:24:51 -0800

One of these codes is to try and be a good judge of wether or not someone might regret a tattoo or not. You might read this and think that is silly, but read this when your drunken 18 year old daughter goes into a tattoo shop and wants a big name on her neck, then tell me our rules are silly This is a perfectly nice example of "tattoo ethics," but it has little relevance to Jane Marie's experience. She is nearly 40, has other tattoos of a similar style (i.e. words) in visible places, was not coming in drunk or on a whim, and does not work in a conservative professional field. Also, the "we won't let you" language is incredibly condescending. Refuse to perform the service if you must, but don't presume to control whether or not she has permission to get a tattoo.

By: kafziel

kafziel — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:24:58 -0800

and really, this is a fucking moronic statement because it comes off like they WOULD tattoo a drunk teen guy It does? I don't get that reading at all. Particularly given that it's a specific rebuttal to an article that repeatedly mentions the writer's only child, who is a daughter.

By: Mars Saxman

Mars Saxman — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:25:44 -0800

If you do, make sure you get it in the right location. Definitely do not get it in the wrong location. Make sure you pick a good design, too. There are many bad designs; do not pick them.

By: mintcake!

mintcake! — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:26:13 -0800

A hair OT but I'd never heard the term 'tattoo collector' before I just read it in the response article and I found it really eye-opening and lovely. Hell yes, collecting very personal art.

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:27:02 -0800

Make sure you pick a good design, too. There are many bad designs; do not pick them. And make sure it faces the right way. If it faces the wrong way, all is lost.

By: josher71

josher71 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:27:02 -0800

but don't presume to control whether or not she has permission to get a tattoo. Except that he does in his shop.

By: Xavier Xavier

Xavier Xavier — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:28:04 -0800

This intersection of "it's my body, and I want a professional to do a thing for me without shaming me" and "I'm a professional, and I don't want to do things you or I will regret" is fascinating. All the more reason to support my latest app: Tattr. It's like Uber, but for ... nevermind.

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:28:18 -0800

And make sure it faces the right way. If it faces the wrong way, all is lost. If a tattoo ye be wantin' Do make sure the shop ain't haunted

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:30:33 -0800

pro tip never get work done in a place where you see drunk people getting work done. This. A reputable artist wouldn't work on someone who was obviously under the influence. I have however seen people drinking beer in the chair after the design was finalized and all applicable consent forms/waivers signed.

By: corb

corb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:30:36 -0800

God, this reminds me of this time I was getting my own tattoo and this obnoxious teenager came in and tried to demand that the artist tattoo him even though the sign clearly said 21+. And he tried to argue with the artist, who was just like 'look, this is my goddamn shop and if I want to not tattoo people under 21 I don't have to.'

By: prize bull octorok

prize bull octorok — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:32:02 -0800

If a tattoo ye be wantin' Do make sure the shop ain't haunted also strive to ensure that the design or placement will not be considered unfashionable in ten, twenty years' time

By: GrapeApiary

GrapeApiary — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:32:12 -0800

Also, the "we won't let you" language is incredibly condescending. Refuse to perform the service if you must, but don't presume to control whether or not she has permission to get a tattoo. You absolutely need the tattoo artist's permission to get a tattoo in his or her shop. He didn't prevent her from getting that tattoo elsewhere. Nor did he prevent her from writing her call-to-arms article. From the article it sounds like everyone who works in that shop is aware of their strict no-neck-tattoos policy. She wasn't singled out.

By: poffin boffin

poffin boffin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:33:07 -0800

it's also hilarious because adorned is where i got my neck tattoo.

By: corb

corb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:34:19 -0800

Well, most ethical shops won't tattoo someone while drunk, but I think it's only against the law some places. But aside from the judgment issue, I guess the alcohol actually fucks up the tattoo- like how people bleed or something?

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:35:35 -0800

Do make sure the shop ain't haunted i uh misheard this as "haint haunted" and i got my tattoo at a shop down by the crossroads at midnight by a man named Percival Scratch who whistled up the spirits and spat them into the ink i tried to go back the next day but the show was gone and i could only find a cow skull and a murder of crows that sang my name so now whenever i roll up my sleeves the lights flicker and the walls bleed but on the plus side i've not lost a game of ouija since

By: OnTheLastCastle

OnTheLastCastle — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:37:23 -0800

Alcohol is an anti-coagulant, I think... so yes, drinking could make you bleed more.

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:37:55 -0800

I guess the alcohol actually fucks up the tattoo- like how people bleed or something? The way it was explained to me was that alcohol is a vasodilator, so if you get tattooed while drunk, you'll bleed much more intensely and for longer, which causes all sorts of problems.

By: biddeford

biddeford — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:38:28 -0800

I don't understand why this is an issue. You can't force an artist to take a commission. He has the right to refuse to tattoo anyone, if he's uncomfortable with it. I really hope this blog rant brings him more business.

By: box

box — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:38:29 -0800

also strive to ensure that the design or placement will not be considered unfashionable in ten, twenty years' time Make sure you know how your skin will change as you age, and what your sun exposure and skincare routines will look like for the next few decades.

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:39:13 -0800

The way it was explained to me was that alcohol is a vasodilator, so if you get tattooed while drunk, you'll bleed much more intensely and for longer, which causes all sorts of problems. I'm getting a lot of dental work done and I was looking up how to get the novocain numbness to go away more quickly. I got as far as "alcohol is a vasodilator" and immediately cracked a beer.

By: workerant

workerant — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:41:54 -0800

In the last tattoo thread, I mentioned that that I'd decided to have an old tattoo enlarged and refreshed. Well, here are the pictures: before and after. It's the same artwork (a roundel from Zodiac by Alphonse Mucha) but bigger and brighter.

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:41:58 -0800

By: moonlight on vermont

moonlight on vermont — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:41:58 -0800

Yeah... The crowning piece of evidence for Dan's hypocrisy/sexism is a well-known celebrity's face tattoo (Gucci Mane's ice cream cone) done in a different city that she is presenting as though it was a flash piece Dan regularly tattooed on whatever part of the body people requested. The photographic proof of "look, you really do neck/face pieces, you just lied and told me you didn't because you think women can't make decisions about their bodies" contains 0 neck or face tattoos. This kind of name-and-shame is petty and gross, even if it had contained any proof that the guy had been anything other than honest.

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:43:00 -0800

The way it was explained to me was that alcohol is a vasodilator, This is why I only get my tattoos done when I'm using poppers. Party drugs for a party dog!

By: Sangermaine

Sangermaine — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:45:01 -0800

Also, the "we won't let you" language is incredibly condescending. Refuse to perform the service if you must, but don't presume to control whether or not she has permission to get a tattoo. Why? They're talking about permission to get a tattoo in their shop. They certainly have the right to tell her whether or not they're going to let her do that. They absolutely 100% have control over whether or not she has permission to do get a tattoo in her shop. This piece was ridiculous, just a spoiled rant by someone who feels lowly servants should shut up and do their jobs. The sexism canard is an absurd low jab, especially given that we only have her word to go on as to how the conversation went down.

By: A Bad Catholic

A Bad Catholic — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:48:36 -0800

Lots of folks in the Army have tattoos, so I've seen all manner of tattoos. The tattoo I remember the most though is one I saw in a McDonald's when I was a teenager. One of the customers had a swatstika tattoo in the middle of his forehead.

By: S'Tella Fabula

S'Tella Fabula — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:50:28 -0800

I work at a tattoo shop, at the counter (not as a tattooer). Lots of people come in asking for tattoos the artists won't do. Picture this. A nice person with no visible tattoos comes in and requests a neck tattoo of a name. Doesn't matter in this instance whose name it is. A name. All three of the tattooers in my shop said they wouldn't do it. Not because the client might regret it (side note: we do tons of cover-up work, so there are a lot of regretted tattoos out there - and not necessarily the ones we find most regrettable), but because the tattooer doesn't want his or her name associated with a weak-ass tattoo like that. Ask around. A lot of tattooers don't want to build a reputation for doing lettering tattoos. It happens all the time where somebody comes in with an image from Pinterest or tattooideas dot org (made that up - I actually don't know where people come up with some of the stuff they bring) or whatever and we can't do it for them. Those designs might belong to another artist - who? We don't know. Those photos are often not credited. We won't copy a design from a tattooer outside the shop. Most of the time, not within the shop as well. Another reason somebody might not get booked for a tattoo is if they are mean or rude or even give a ton of attitude to the counter girl (i.e., me). I hate to admit it, but if somebody is being really obstreperous, we don't want a relationship with them. It happens way more that you'd think. Customers think we're all ex-cons, bikers, meth dealers, or the like. We're artists, two even have MFAs. No amount of money is worth dealing with rude people. I would never refuse to book somebody just because they'd chosen what I found to be a crummy tattoo design. But I will ask someone to leave if they are rude or mean. And I will call the police (we tattoo sooooo many of our local constabulary it's not even funny) if I have to, with the blessing of our shop owner. Lastly, there is an element of sexism to it, though it is unstated most of the time. Dude tattooers want a reputation for doing kick-ass dragon and skull and whatnot tattoos, not one-word, line-work, "lady" tattoos. Our most prominent artist is a woman with a sterling reputation for doing eye-poppingly gorgeous tattoo work on women, though. I'm on lunch break now, sorry it has taken me forever to write this. It's summer, so the phone is ringing off the hook because people want to get tattoos to show off at the lake while the weather's nice. For the record, nothing is worse than taking a brand-new tattoo out in the sun. Just FYI - as those who care didn't already know!

By: benzenedream

benzenedream — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:50:37 -0800

(Although maybe the shamrock has a hidden meaning, other than our vaguely Irish heritage, that I am not privy to. That would make a difference to me. But come on, we're only like a quarter Irish.) the shamrock has a hidden meaning

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:52:08 -0800

Racists also use the Celtic cross, but fuck those guys.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:52:55 -0800

Code of ethics my ass, when you have a customer gallery including someone who got a giant-ass ice cream cone on their cheek.

By: jamjam

jamjam — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:53:59 -0800

Speaking as a person who for many years treated caution as something you threw up into the wind to help pull you forward into new adventures, I'm glad I didn't get into tattoos. Because now I have vitiligo, very possibly secondary to celiac disease in my case, and according to the American Academy of Dermatology, vitiligo and tattoos do not mix terribly well:

Do not get a tattoo. Getting a tattoo can cause something called Keobnerization or the Koebner phenomenon. What this means is when you wound your skin, which getting a tattoo does, a new patch of vitiligo can appear about 10 to 14 days later.

Note that the linked page does not say that tattoos cause vitiligo, yet significantly elevated rates of vitiligo are associated with lots of autoimmune problems, and I think it's pretty likely that for some people, a tattoo could trigger vitiligo in the presence of preexisting autoimmunity.

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:54:22 -0800

The tattoo I remember the most though is one I saw in a McDonald's when I was a teenager. One of the customers had a swatstika tattoo in the middle of his forehead. It's a family restaurant. Not a Manson family restaurant.

By: GrapeApiary

GrapeApiary — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:55:38 -0800

odinsdream, please see moonlight on vermont's comment above.

By: a lungful of dragon

a lungful of dragon — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:56:05 -0800

just a spoiled rant Karl Marx was wrong. The endgame of capitalism is really entitlement culture.

By: milk white peacock

milk white peacock — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:57:44 -0800

A lot of people are pointing out the use of "daughter" as evidence of the hidden tattoo-world sexism Jane Marie is trying to point out. That may be true, but keep in mind the word she was trying to get on her neck was her daughter's name, and she never mentions a son. I think he may have been referring to the author's real world daughter. I'm not so sure. He talks about Jane Marie in the third person throughout, and "you" the reader as his hypothetical client. He probably didn't change it up in just this one spot (but who knows). Tacky and drunk are well-established stereotypes against tattooed women, demonstrated in the other recent women-with-tattoos thread. I'm not saying these two particular men are misogynists. I am saying I don't think it's at all off-base to speculate that they may be.

By: photoslob

photoslob — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:58:12 -0800

Which is really weird, since they cost so damn much. I couldn't afford one. This. I have a friend who has a piece that starts as a full sleeve and then works its way across is neck and back over his butt and down his leg. He's got tens of thousands of dollars into this one piece. He could have literally bought an inexpensive car for what he's paid for this tattoo. I've often thought about getting a few tattoos but I'm afraid of falling down the rabbit hole. Imagine my surprise that a person who's responsible for applying marks to another person's body for LIFE feels a responsibility to make sure the work is jibes with their code of ethics. The writer sounds like an entitled jerk.

By: RobotVoodooPower

RobotVoodooPower — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:58:38 -0800

I wonder if there is a place that refuses to do Boba Fett. My guess from casual observation is no.

By: everybody had matching towels

everybody had matching towels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:00:29 -0800

Code of ethics my ass, when you have a customer gallery including someone who got a giant-ass ice cream cone on their cheek. This has been covered a couple of times in this thread, but the ice cream cone cheek tattoo was done by a different artist at a different shop on the face of Gucci Mane. The same tattoo on an arm or leg was done at the shop in question. The shop being talked about here, NY Adorned, did not tattoo an ice cream come on Gucci Mane's face.

By: tittergrrl

tittergrrl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:00:35 -0800

Sorry, but let me join in the chorus of people who that original author is totally in the wrong here. I find it odd that she chose to single out this tattoo parlor, and this tattoo artist when this can be found earlier in the article (bolding mine):

As soon as we arrived and told the woman at the counter what we'd like, she said, "You can discuss it with the artist's assistant but I'm not sure they'll let you get a neck tattoo." Let me! Okay, here's where I admit that this response didn't entirely surprise me. This was the third time I'd been told that: once at a parlor where I just immediately walked out—granted, I'd had a few wines, so I don't feel like putting them entirely on blast for that one—and once by my cousin Josh, but it was more of a hypothetical refusal since we were just sitting in my yard and not in his tattoo parlor. But the folks at New York Adorned did some next level shit, which is why I'm telling you about it.

So, this one parlor said no they don't do neck tattoos. Her (male) cousin said probably wouldn't let her get a neck tattoo. Was she thinking the third time's the charm, and that the "next level shit" place would have lower standards than other tattoo parlors? This just comes off as a massive hit job by an possibly entitled writer on the Internet. Besides the ridicule of his tattoos...

Dan: "A neck tattoo on someone without a lot of tattoos is like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake." Stunning analogy, right? I wonder: Does Dan know what an analogy even is?

Yeah, he just used one. I bet he knows what one is. desuetude:This is a perfectly nice example of "tattoo ethics," but it has little relevance to Jane Marie's experience. She is nearly 40, has other tattoos of a similar style (i.e. words) in visible places, was not coming in drunk or on a whim, and does not work in a conservative professional field. Information that the tattoo artist had no way of knowing if Jane Marie's article is accurate as to their conversation, because reading it it seems the entire conversation was: "I want a neck tattoo." "No." "Why?" "It looks tacky." "I'm outta here." She didn't mention her age or job or anything, it seems. Maybe if she did (assuming she did not), things may have worked out differently, though extremely doubtful. It's great that she got her tattoo and is happy, but there's really only one reason for this article, and it can be summed up perhaps in her next tattoo: "Clickbait 4 Lyfe"

By: ndg

ndg — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:03:02 -0800

Neck tattoos were known as "everlasting jobstoppers" at my high school. I still think that's clever.

By: prize bull octorok

prize bull octorok — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:04:30 -0800

This has been covered a couple of times in this thread, but the ice cream cone cheek tattoo was done by a different artist at a different shop on the face of Gucci Mane. MeFi's own! Hold on my producer is handing me a note

By: box

box — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:05:50 -0800

If Hendricks had done Gucci Mane's ice cream cone tattoo, which, again and again and again, he didn't, it might be worth pointing out that Gucci Mane is a successful rapper, a career that is, let's say, very open to people with tattoos (see also Lil Wayne, Wiz Khalifa, Rick Ross, etc., etc.), and that, before getting the ice cream cone, he already had two full sleeves, a big chest piece, neck tattoos, hand tattoos and teardrops on his face. Seems like a bit of a false equivalency.

By: Kitteh

Kitteh — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:06:10 -0800

*sees thread about tattoos; hopes for awesome tattoo-positive thread* *reads thread* *NOPEs the hell out because once again there a lot of folks calling me and my friends fools*

By: NailsTheCat

NailsTheCat — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:10:36 -0800

I wonder: Does Dan know what an analogy even is? tittergrrl beat me to pointing that out but wow; what an awful thing to write. I don't think I like this lady.

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:10:54 -0800

I don't judge people for neck tattoos, but god forbid they wear a striped shirt or they're probably beatniks or filthy barge dwellers or perhaps shanghaiers. Because like people who judge others for neck tattoos, I apparently come from Victorian New York.

By: me3dia

me3dia — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:11:14 -0800

*NOPEs the hell out because once again there a lot of folks calling me and my friends fools* Plenty of people not doing so, too, though. Why not add some positivity yourself?

By: divined by radio

divined by radio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:12:15 -0800

Huh! I went into this half-expecting to empathize with Jane Marie and came away thinking she sounded excruciatingly petulant, immature, and very, very inexperienced when it comes to being told no. Getting a tattoo is expressly not like strolling up to a barista and giving them money in exchange for a latte; there isn't a single tattoo artist on the planet who will ever be in any way duty-bound to 'serve' you just because you want them to. That's kind of every single tattoo artist ever's whole thing, actually: They get to refuse and accept clientele based on their own personal preferences and you can't say boo. Yes, even if they just gave the previous client the exact same tattoo as you wanted to get! Yes, even if you think they've given previous clients much less classy tattoos than yours would be! My very first tattoo artist wouldn't let me get my very first tattoos less than two inches below where my would-be long-sleeve shirt cuff would fall (for employability purposes) and I huffed and puffed for about a minute before being like, "Wait, let's put it right where you suggested, you're the professional." It's literally dude's entire M.O. to help his customers select the right placement, the right art, and the right size. So even though there has been no point in my entire life at which having tattoos higher up on my wrists would harm me or my professional life in any way, and even though I spent the next handful of years covering that upper two inches with more tattoos because :P, I would never begrudge that dude his refusal to put them where I wanted. He was just doing his job. "A neck tattoo on someone without a lot of tattoos is like lighting a birthday candle on an unbaked cake" isn't a shitty analogy, it's fucking 100% right on. In her own words, Jane Marie's three other tattoos are a name on her shoulder that's "about one inch long," a "little" letter C on her wrist, and another single word on her arm in "tiny script." But having repeatedly made the decision to keep getting tiny tattoos gives your would-be artist the completely understandable impression that you're either the kind of person who's more likely than the average tattoo recipient to want to get it removed, or the kind of person who's going to want to be able to cover their tattoos up quickly and easily. Of course there's going to be sexism involved, there's sexism involved in literally everything. (Yes, even if men don't see it! Yes, even if men refuse to believe that it's sexist!) But if you don't ever want to be told no under any circumstances, if you want to treat tattoo parlors like a Starbucks where you go up to the counter and place your order and get what you ordered right away with no questions asked? Oh no. Sorry, bruh, you're in the wrong line of patronage. MeFites with tattoos, y'all are my people. I'm covered with 'em, I have so many more pieces in the works, and shit, we're all gonna die someday, so let's just fucking love it up when fools try to call us out on the carpet for having the unmitigated gall to -- *gasp* -- permanently mark up our pre-corpses. And let's go get some work done!

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:14:01 -0800

MeFi's own! I like to imagine Gucci Mane doing his time making mix tapes and writing on metafilter.

By: jeff-o-matic

jeff-o-matic — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:15:18 -0800

For better or for worse, tattoos ARE a cultural signifier. Isn't that the entire point? You WILL be judged one way or another by them. Is this sugar-coated fair? No. If you dress like a Juggalo, people will assume you are a Juggalo. If you have a big virgin of Guadalupe tattoo, people will assume you are religious. If you have a dreamcatcher, people will think you have a new age vibe about you. Similarly, if I wore a Van Halen shirt, people would generally think I was a Van Halen fan. I'm neutral on tattoos, but to those with tattoos, you can't have it both ways. You're gonna get judged. It's how humans work.

By: a fiendish thingy

a fiendish thingy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:15:21 -0800

Best tattoo related news of the day: Cavaliers point guard Kyrie Irving has a "Friends" tattoo, is rightfully unashamed.

By: emjaybee

emjaybee — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:15:33 -0800

I would only think "jail" of a crude tattoo, like the kind you would give yourself in prison. A professionally-executed neck tattoo says nothing more to me than "I have enough money and I thought this looked cool." But then I have never cared about tattoos. Lots of piercing makes me wince mostly because it looks painful to me (I know it's not, it just makes me think "Jesus I bet that hurt to get done.") But I don't care if people get it done. I absolutely don't have the emotional response so many people do, of getting angry that someone would dare do something to their own skin. Why should I care, even if it's ugly? It's their skin. I hate that jobs can rest on them, because that's stupid; whether or not someone has ink ornamenting their skin doesn't affect their ability to do their job, unless they are a makeup model. I'd hire someone with a neck tattoo if they were otherwise competent. On the other hand, I have no problem with an artist saying "no" to something. I don't equate that to tubes tied because not getting a tattoo is not going to result in you having to risk pregnancy more. She can certainly find another artist to do one if she still wants it. It's possible, but not certain, that his reasons are sexist. But again; lots of artists out there. But then, I also wonder when we get to the era when tattoos become associated with Old People and become less trendy for that reason.

By: mochapickle

mochapickle — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:15:43 -0800

Gosh, I thought people were being pretty respectful and supportive of tattoos, actually. I really do think this comes down to customer service. The whole thing that got her riled up was someone who didn't know her saying, "I can't let you." As if there were some sort of permission to be granted. (That would drive me crazy, too.) If he had said, "Hey, I respect where you're coming from. I can't do this work for you, unfortunately, but you might try [OTHER SHOP]" this whole story wouldn't exist. As it is, this whole story shouldn't exist. People get bad customer service all the time.

By: Frowner

Frowner — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:17:14 -0800

On reading this thread: I really didn't realize the depth of disapproval that people still have about tattoos - Minneapolis is, IIRC, a city with a larger than average percentage of tattooed people, so maybe that's messing with me, and I have a friend who has - no, really, it's true! - genuinely lovely stick and poke tattoos on her fingers and wrists. I wouldn't really have any opinion about someone with a little cursive name on their neck and would be surprised to find that it was a problem with hiring in most non-office-jobs. How much of this is Big Other stuff, given residence in a major city? I'm curious as to who here has - for instance - the power to hire and fire and would not hire someone with a small neck tattoo of the type in the article. Would there be any reason beyond "clearly someone with a visible tattoo does not grasp business norms, therefore I as a hirer will not hire them", which seems a little silly if everything else about the person checks out?

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:18:40 -0800

You're gonna get judged. It's how humans work. Shitty humans.

By: exogenous

exogenous — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:18:51 -0800

divined by radio: "Getting a tattoo is expressly not like strolling up to a barista and giving them money in exchange for a latte" Ahem, and don't forget the resulting hit on MeFi Music.

By: everybody had matching towels

everybody had matching towels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:19:32 -0800

FTA (actually, from tittergirl's excerpt like 4 comments up): Okay, here's where I admit that this response didn't entirely surprise me. This was the third time I'd been told that: once at a parlor where I just immediately walked out—granted, I'd had a few wines I didn't catch this on initial read, but many places will not tattoo someone who has been drinking, even if it's just "a few wines." I'm wondering if that played a part in their refusal.

By: Mars Saxman

Mars Saxman — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:21:03 -0800

He's got tens of thousands of dollars into this one piece. He could have literally bought an inexpensive car for what he's paid for this tattoo. Tens of thousands of dollars.... is an inexpensive car??? I think if you're spending more than one ten of thousands of dollars it no longer qualifies as "inexpensive"!

By: French Fry

French Fry — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:23:23 -0800

I have a few tattoos. I work and have for a while in very white collar industries. When I got my most recent tattoo the artist had a loooong talk with me about how this newest piece might be visible in short sleeve shirts because he knew what I did for a living. He eventually agreed to do it, but certainly wouldn't have done work on my neck. The last 3-4 places I've worked would not hire you if you had a neck tattoo.

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0800

Minneapolis is, IIRC, a city with a larger than average percentage of tattooed people -Frowner Yep, this is correct! I've noticed lots of people happily holding down jobs in bars and stuff with extensive facial tattoos in Minneapolis, which is not something you see in Chicago, an even bigger city. Minneapolis just doesn't give a shit, which is awesome.

By: tittergrrl

tittergrrl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:26:28 -0800

everybody had matching towels: I didn't catch this on initial read, but many places will not tattoo someone who has been drinking, even if it's just "a few wines." I'm wondering if that played a part in their refusal. To be fair, I believe that was on a separate occasion, not the same day this occurred. The discussion with her cousin Josh who said the same thing, she said, during a discussion in her yard.

By: Carillon

Carillon — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:26:39 -0800

Tens of thousands of dollars.... is an inexpensive car??? I think if you're spending more than one ten of thousands of dollars it no longer qualifies as "inexpensive"! Probably meant inexpensive new car?

By: everybody had matching towels

everybody had matching towels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:27:51 -0800

I believe that was on a separate occasion Oh, yeah, it totally was. I'm just wondering if it contributed to one of the refusals.

By: rtha

rtha — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:28:31 -0800

> I'm neutral on tattoos, but to those with tattoos, you can't have it both ways. You're gonna get judged. It's how humans work. Acting like it's some kind of immovable and unchageable thing is silly, though. What and how humans judge anything that other humans do is subject to change, and it's humans who can consciously do the changing. The ways in which I got judged because I'm a dyke has changed radically over the last couple of decades, and likewise the ways in which people judge tattoos has changed a ton and will continue to do so. (Where I live right now, and the circles I move in, yeah, I get judged on my visible-when-in-short-sleeves tattoos....by people who come up to say how much they like them and where did I get them done.)

By: FJT

FJT — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:29:48 -0800

This is all immaterial once e-ink tattoos are a thing. /cyberpunk

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:30:19 -0800

I would only think "jail" of a crude tattoo, like the kind you would give yourself in prison. A professionally-executed neck tattoo says nothing more to me than "I have enough money and I thought this looked cool." I have an intentionally crude-looking professional tattoo which is between my shoulder blades, and thus visible on occasion (yes the artist initially balked at doing it, but my explanation of why it needed to look slightly crude and where it came from won him over). I cannot even express how tickled I'd be if it turned out random strangers were assuming that this 30-something lady wearing a floral sundress and a bun, reading the New Yorker at the Starbucks, had gotten her tats in prison.

By: divined by radio

divined by radio — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:30:40 -0800

If you dress like a Juggalo, people will assume you are a Juggalo. I'm not sure what dressing like a juggalo means (other than wearing an ICP/alumni t-shirt?) but this reminds me of my absolute #1 favorite thing about having a Psychopathic Records logo tattooed in a very prominent and front-facing place on my body. Sometimes I start thinking about covering it up, not because it's no longer meaningful to me but because it's prime tattoo real estate and the fact that ICP are not very good is not a point I can argue against in good faith at this point in my life. But then I'll be on a roadtrip, or at the grocery store, or at the bank, and some random person will come up to me and smile and belt out a "WHOOP WHOOP!" or refer to me as "family" even though we've never seen each other before in our lives and the whole thing warms my cold, black heart so much that I start thinking about getting the logo spiffed up and enlarged instead of covered. I had a run-in like this last weekend at a Mobile station in Lake Mills, WI -- the woman behind the counter nodded at me when I came to the counter and said, "Hey, nice hatchet man," in an approving tone of voice. I smiled knowingly and we shared a 'lo moment. Then she put her hands in the air and outed with a very loud "WHOOP WHOOP!" for all the store to hear. So of course I responded with the same gesture and an equally enthusiastic "WHOOP WHOOP!" and we completed our gas station transaction and I grinned from ear to ear for the next 24 hours. Yeah, I guess tattoos do send silent messages about the kind of person you are. But sometimes they're really, really good ones. This has been a test of the dbr emergency juggalo appreciation system, we will now resume our regularly scheduled programming.

By: Sangermaine

Sangermaine — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:33:02 -0800

I really do think this comes down to customer service. The whole thing that got her riled up was someone who didn't know her saying, "I can't let you." As if there were some sort of permission to be granted. (That would drive me crazy, too.) mochapickle Again, there is some sort of permission to be granted: permission to get a neck tattoo in the shop. Can people making these comments explain their reasoning? It just makes no sense to me. A store is perfectly within its rights to tell you what you are or are not allowed to do in the store. I'm imagining these posters seeing a "No Smoking Allowed" sign in a store and screaming "Not allowed!? NOT ALLOWED!? You can't tell me what to put in my body! I don't need your permission to smoke!"

By: bonehead

bonehead — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:33:41 -0800

This is all immaterial once e-ink tattoos are a thing. /cyberpunk That would be right now, btw. (Android or iOS).

By: symbioid

symbioid — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:34:51 -0800

Remember when we had livejournal, and all our dramatastic posts like this were just left for our select internet friends? Those were the days. Now we can mock you like the idiot you are and the whole world knows.

By: frimble

frimble — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:36:12 -0800

WHOOP WHOOP! The dbr emergency juggalo appreciation system still works, and that was a beautiful story.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:36:20 -0800

Kinda makes me think of this classic entitlement rant.

By: bonehead

bonehead — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:36:54 -0800

(Apparently that's an April fools joke. My bad)

By: Adridne

Adridne — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:39:08 -0800

I got a tattoo on the back of my neck, right under the hairline, when I was eighteen. It's a round celtic knot, about 2" in diameter. It's my first and only tattoo. The first place I went to refused to do it, the artist said he doesn't work on public skin because he thinks it's bad for the image of tattooing/tattooed people. I respected his opinion, but still got it done elsewhere. Seventeen years later, I have never regretted it, not for a second. It might be my favorite thing about my body, actually. Probably someone thinks it's tacky as shit, but to me it's about my ancestry and a form of art I love. And if that hypothetical person has ever seen it, they've been smart enough not to tell me about it. So, yeah. Maybe some hypothetical person who gets their first and only tat on their neck at a young age will regret it. Probably some do! But not all of us.

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:40:48 -0800

Shitty humans. It's shitty to judge people, yes. I'm not bothered by tattoos; I have lots of colleagues, friends, and relatives who have one or more. And yet, given the degree to which tattoos, piercings, body mods, etc., all still carry a whiff of the good old épater la bourgeoisie, I have to laugh a bit at how cross some people get when the bourgeoisie are actually épater-d.

By: jeff-o-matic

jeff-o-matic — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:42:31 -0800

"What and how humans judge anything that other humans do is subject to change, and it's humans who can consciously do the changing. The problem is, tattoos are a form of art, and art is wildly subjective. Someone might think your tattoo is just plain ugly (not you, hypothetical) and even if they are pro-tattoo, they might think you are the sort that makes bad choices. Or someone might see a tattoo of a scarab beetle and be creeped out because they hate insects. An extreme example would be a swastika. There's a thousand reasons why someone might judge you for a tattoo as it's a conscious choice that was made. Being gay is becoming more and more accepted because it is (largely) no longer considered a "choice" or a weird behavior. Similarly you don't choose your race. You do choose to get a tattoo, and you have a choice of what it is. And placement means something too. A neck tattoo says to the viewer "I want people to see this when they interact with me," which charges the symbolic meaning of the tattoo.

By: Frowner

Frowner — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:44:25 -0800

I actually like "back of the neck under the hairline" tattoos and had no idea this was considered such a terrible thing. It's a great place on the body for a tattoo - a nice, symmetrical spot - and it seems like one gets saggy there later than in many other places. It seems like one of the natural decorative points on the body - although to tell the truth, I think the base of the spine/"tr--- stamp" location is a nice place for a tattoo as well, and am baffled by when everyone hates those. I have no tattoos at all though - I scar like blazes and have really fussy skin and assume the whole thing would just turn into a gross, oozing, scarified disaster.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:46:13 -0800

Kinda makes me think of this classic entitlement rant Wow. That makes me really, really happy to not be in retail anymore.

By: vibrotronica

vibrotronica — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:48:54 -0800

Thread-appropriate song: Lucero - "All Sewn Up (In Bad Tattoos)"

By: jetsetsc

jetsetsc — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:57:34 -0800

The first thing that popped into my head was, what if he was a pastor, and she was a gay couple? How would I feel about it then? The second thing was that civil marriage is a civil right, and getting a neck tattoo is not.

By: Cookiebastard

Cookiebastard — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:57:46 -0800

I know there are plenty of places that would be happy to put Elmer Fudd holding a sign that says "POOP" on my forehead as long as I paid cash up front and didn't slur too much when I asked for it, but my best tattoos were done by people with whom the conversation about what and where the tattoo was going to be was a serious conversation, and not necessarily the first one I ever had with the artist. If I want a neck tattoo, I know where to get it, because I know who in town does good neck-work. For me a tattoo isn't an impulse buy. Have a good relationship with your vendor and they not only won't turn you down for a neck tattoo if that's what you want, they'll execute it more beautifully.

By: internet fraud detective squad, station number 9

internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:02:14 -0800

Also, this conversation really makes me want to get a tattoo. There is an artist who does tattoos that look like watercolors, does anyone know who I'm talking about? For the longest time I've wanted one.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:03:38 -0800

I was turned down for a neck tattoo. Thank god. Chuck Jones, (who went on to do the art for Half Life), unilaterally refused to do it. He told me that it wasn't my style, it wasn't something I'd be happy with, it wasn't something he was willing to do, and he thought that I shouldn't do it at all, even if I could find someone else in the area to do it. (Knowing all the artists I know, I don't think anyone else reputable would have done it either.) It really wouldn't have fit me. It was a reaction to my really ugly and public divorce, and I am so glad, 20 some odd years later, that Chuck refused to do it. That said; the only tattoos I have were done by him, and they are magnificent, and I don't regret them a bit two decades later.

By: prize bull octorok

prize bull octorok — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:03:38 -0800

I am definitely having my next tattoo done by somebody compelled by law against their will to do it, now that's gonna be edgy watch out squares

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:05:44 -0800

[Couple comments deleted. Let's not take this down the road of arguing about gay marriages and which service providers can refuse service to gay couples. Thanks.]

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:06:33 -0800

The watercolor tattoos I've seen are all gorgeous. Do it! Mine are black and I keep trying to design something to incorporate that look. I just want all the pretty colors.

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:08:41 -0800

There is an artist who does tattoos that look like watercolors, does anyone know who I'm talking about? internet fraud detective squad, station number 9, was it Amanda Wachob? I did a FPP on her a long time ago (long enough that most links are broken). She doesn't appear to have a ton of this work on her website anymore, but you can still see images in a google search.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:09:44 -0800

IFDSSNo9; Yes, yes I do. Richard Garcia at Legacy in Dallas is probably the finest watercolor tattoo artist working in North America. The other really astonishing artists are in Russia, France and Netherlands.

By: internet fraud detective squad, station number 9

internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:11:54 -0800

Thank you both so much! erratic meatsack, ironically, I sort of want a black and white tattoo in the watercolor style! (Well, black and my skin color, which is close to white.)

By: carsonb

carsonb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:14:41 -0800

Oh 'lo moment lol! Nobody ever wants to be the unbaked birthday cake in the analogy, but that's no excuse for the clickbait shaming.

By: not that girl

not that girl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:15:08 -0800

She was talented and popular enough that she just didn't have to tat up drunken idiots who wandered in on Saturday nights - she was appointment-only and booked for *months* out. I recently talked with a tattoo artist whose work I admire about possibly doing something for me. The thing I am envisioning was really big for me but wasn't big enough for him—he liked my concept, felt like it was well-thought-out, but he is only booking tattoos in the $1000 and up range these days. I was a little tempted to come up with another few hundred dollars worth of tattoo, because I really like this guy's work. But no.

By: OMGTehAwsome

OMGTehAwsome — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:16:12 -0800

What in the world does she have against male knitters? I hope to never meet Jane Marie in person because I'll have to very rudely refuse to make her a sweater.

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:17:53 -0800

putting a sweater on an unappreciative person is like putting basically any article of clothing on a cat they fucking hate it and now you're crying

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:19:16 -0800

erratic meatsack, ironically, I sort of want a black and white tattoo in the watercolor style! (Well, black and my skin color, which is close to white.) I didn't even think of that. Rad! On the topic of the original article, I think someone who shows up to a tattoo studio after admitting to having a few drinks really has no idea what they're doing, and that was pretty damning. I was immediately inclined to think that this is someone who doesn't really get how studios work.

By: frimble

frimble — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:22:08 -0800

they fucking hate it and now you're crying But likely not bleeding from a thousand scratch marks. OTOH, also not reaching your phone in order to record "Fluffy hates his sweater" for later youtubing and making the cat watch the video of him in his sweater. In conclusion, my cats need sweaters.

By: poffin boffin

poffin boffin — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:24:14 -0800

putting a sweater on an unappreciative person is like putting basically any article of clothing on a cat ok but look

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:30:32 -0800

On the topic of the original article, I think someone who shows up to a tattoo studio after admitting to having a few drinks really has no idea what they're doing, and that was pretty damning I had the same thought about "the advent of lasers" line. Lasering a tattoo off successfully takes appointment after appointment after appointment. It's painful and expensive. It often doesn't completely work or causes more scarring, especially on people of color. I have a friend currently going through the process. She's pale as a piece of paper, she's been to multiple appointments, the tattoo is barely faded, and she says it's more painful than any of her tattoos. I'm not saying it never works, or that it's not an option. But I think too many people have this idea that there's some sort of magic eraser out there for tattoos. There really, really isn't; in many cases, unless your tattoo is a giant black blotch, a cover-up is the way to go, and a cover-up doesn't work is the problem isn't the tattoo itself but rather the placement. People who really "get" tattoos - who might convince a tattoo artist to do their hands, or neck - would understand it's never going anywhere, and be happy about that.

By: naju

naju — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:33:29 -0800

I have some thoughts about all this but really, I just love Gucci Mane's ice cream cone face tat.

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:55:14 -0800

This line made me roll my eyes the most: "And then suddenly I'm fighting back tears because, as Dan has already correctly assessed, I'm just a feeble-minded, hysterical girl." I can't take her seriously with that much weird projecting. It's like she's looking for something to get outraged over, and when Dan hasn't provided enough fuel she has to make shit up.

By: misskaz

misskaz — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:56:29 -0800

I've never gotten exactly the tattoo I asked for/envisioned, and the artist who has done most of my tattoos has a "no names, no neck tattoos (with some rare exceptions)" policy. She also isn't interested in doing the tattoo I want next, so I'm going to a new artist. I was a little sad when she didn't express interest in doing the work (kind of a But I thought we were FRIENDS!!! moment) but found out from another client/mutual friend that she declines her ideas all the time too. I don't know what this new artist's policy is on neck tattoos, or even full sleeves on a white collar professional lady like myself. But I do know I contacted him 2 months ago, our consultation is in 3 weeks, and I probably won't be sitting in a chair until September or October. Good artists collaborate with you, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

By: Sunburnt

Sunburnt — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:57:43 -0800

People looking for things to get upset over? On the INTERNET? I'm OUTRAGED!

By: kittensofthenight

kittensofthenight — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:14:13 -0800

I got a small 4" black line on my forearm. The shop had a clearly displayed sign saying "no straight lines or circles." The artist pointed it out, talked to me about why I wanted the line (which was for no reason other than I had been imagining it for months and it was my birthday) and told me it would never really look straight because that's not how arms work. We talked about length and placement for a while and he agreed to do it. I would guess that the shop in the post was probably busy and they didn't have time to talk for 30 mins with someone who is getting a $40 tattoo. The place I went to was empty and had a sign out front saying "Names, $15" and their service was on par with a good RN or Barber.

By: Lexica

Lexica — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:43:39 -0800

Is the Russian artist you're thinking of Sasha Unisex, dejah420? She does amazing work.

By: Jughead

Jughead — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:50:02 -0800

Those watercolor style tattoos are amazing...

By: chavenet

chavenet — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:54:17 -0800

If you do, make sure you get it in the right location. Definitely do not get it in the wrong location. and make sure it's classy And make sure I approve of both the location and the classiness

By: obscure simpsons reference

obscure simpsons reference — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:59:10 -0800

Starland Vocal Band?! They suck!

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:08:34 -0800

Wow, Sasha's work is gorgeous. Next thing I'm getting will be colorful and pretty and just because, and I'm happy to be at a point in my life where I'm 100% okay with that. (It's also been really cool seeing my parents get more and more comfortable with tattoos. My younger sister surprised them with one ages ago, and it was a major thing in our family. Then I got one, and then she married a heavily tattooed guy, and they don't even bat an eye these days. Progress is fantastic.)

By: mumimor

mumimor — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:25:21 -0800

Someone I know regularly gets new tattoos, and then has to get them removed for work reasons. I really wish the guys who tattoo them would have the sense of responsibility this person shows. My ex, who is still my bestie, has all the tattoos, but works in a business where it is not at all questioned. I would not personally think about tattoos when hiring, but I do not have the last vote, and my boss would definitely hesitate and need more reasons before hiring anyone with visible tattoos. For a lot of jobs, tattoos are a problem, and this includes creative jobs where you would never have imagined it.

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:26:52 -0800

Yeah, the phrasing used by the receptionist and artist is important here. If they actually said "You can discuss it with the artist's assistant but I'm not sure they'll let you get a neck tattoo," then I can totally see grounds for complaining about it (not in an outraged internet article, probably, but maybe that's just not my style.) If, on the other hand, they actually said something like "I'm not sure they'll be interested in giving you a neck tattoo," or "They generally have a personal rule against doing neck tattoos on people who are not already heavily tattooed," then that's very different. When you get a tattoo, you're commissioning a work of art. I have no trouble imagining (because I've witnessed it) patrons of an artist trying to commission a work and being turned down - told by the artist that the artist declines to take on the job. Sometimes those patrons get bent out of shape about it, though I think it's unreasonable of them to do so. But then those words "let you" keep jumping out at me. Let's imagine an iconic artist for hire who was notoriously difficult with clients and insisted on doing what he wanted, their wishes be damned: Scenario 1: Client meets with Frank Lloyd Wright, and says they want a house with a big garage. Wright gets mad and says "No garages - only carports." Fine. That's Wright being Wright and exercising his artistic prerogative to turn down a specific commission at the time it is proposed. Scenario 2: Client goes to Wright's offices and tells the receptionist they are super excited to work with Wright, and by the way, they want a big garage. The receptionist responds "You can discuss it with Mr. Wright's assistant, but I'm not sure they'll let you get a big garage." Now, that's different, isn't it? It's not necessarily time for the internet outrage machine to spring into action, but it's certainly rude, and takes on a very different tone when it's saying that the artist won't "let you" get something rather than saying the artist won't create a requested piece of art. In this case, I can easily imagine the whole "let you" thing being merely a linguistic tic, and not a phrase that is fraught with deep and offensive meaning. I can also imagine Jane Marie, a few weeks after the events, not getting the exact quote quite right, such that it's kind of silly to parse the verbiage like I just did above.

By: Room 641-A

Room 641-A — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:30:08 -0800

Another reason somebody might not get booked for a tattoo is if they are mean or rude or even give a ton of attitude to the counter girl (i.e., me). I hate to admit it, but if somebody is being really obstreperous, we don't want a relationship with them. "obstreperous" is my new neck tattoo. I've been planning to get a neck tattoo next week but at the last minute I decided I want to see it, so it will go somewhere on my inner arm or wrist. I still would like to get something at the nape of my neck, though. "After a brief wait, this Kyle Mooney on "Inside So-Cal" looking (and sounding)-ass dude named Josh walks up. " I hate this kind of thing. If she'd gotten her tattoo and was writing a glowing review she wouldn't describe him this way. I mean, what the fuck did Josh do to her? He told her their policy, and in light of that policy he made an alternate suggestion. When this was unacceptable to the customer he went to get his boss, the artist who would be working on her. pro tip never get work done in a place where you see drunk people getting work done. This is very true, but I have a theory that the only people who get tattoos where drunk people are getting tattoos are other drunk people.

By: pullayup

pullayup — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:30:08 -0800

putting a sweater on an unappreciative person is like putting basically any article of clothing on a cat ok but look Welp I hope Mr PamperedWhiskers sells enough of those hats to pay for his bilateral eye transplant.

By: The corpse in the library

The corpse in the library — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:40:01 -0800

> Any other kind of tattoo just signifies middle class aspirations Does not. I was already middle class when I got my tattoos, thankyouverymuch.

By: janey47

janey47 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 15:52:49 -0800

Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here. I got my first tattoo in 1980 and my most recent work was done in 2009, so I'm no stranger to or enemy of tattoos. And yet until the early 2000s I would see a neck tattoo and think, "This is a person who doesn't have or want a job that I would want." The stupidest thing in the world changed my opinion and it wasn't even a real tattoo. This dumb little movie called Pieces of April feature a young girl (who I only now found out was Katie Holmes, of all people) with an adorable neck tattoo. Although I still don't have one, and am unlikely to get one, my view on neck tattoos changed completely. It very well may be that the release of that film coincided perfectly with the tipping point of tattoos becoming sufficiently acceptable that visible tattoos, or women having tattoos, was no big deal and the movie kind of awoke me to that fact. (It was a big deal when I got my first). Or maybe it was just a really cute tattoo. I'll never know.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:02:05 -0800

"If you dress like a Juggalo, people will assume you are a Juggalo. If you have a big virgin of Guadalupe tattoo, people will assume you are religious. If you have a dreamcatcher, people will think you have a new age vibe about you. Similarly, if I wore a Van Halen shirt, people would generally think I was a Van Halen fan." Whoop whoop! One of the girls I worked with at my last job has had a couple of on-again-off-again apprenticeships as a tattoo artist, and has tons of, well, terrible tattoos, including a huge, unfinished haunted house on her thing. It's through her that I learned the term "job-stoppers" for tattoos on the knuckles. But since she's now off in Humboldt growing on state land somewhere, I don't think she's lost anything for having them except maybe some chances at having better tattoo artists take her on. This does all remind me of a guy I went to high school with, a guy named Jason. He was huge — 6'6", 220, ripped — and was a senior when I was a freshman. His girlfriend was a theater techie, and Jason both sold quality drugs at reasonable prices and didn't mind driving his girlfriend's unlicensed friends around in his van — a dirtbag with a heart of gold. After high school, he got a job in the tattoo parlor next to the basement pinball arcade in an off-campus mall. He claimed to be the first person in town certified to do genital piercings, though I have no way of knowing whether that was accurate. But since he worked in a tattoo parlor, he'd trade piercings for tattoos and got a ton of them, some nice and most dubious. Many of them were ICP related: He had the covers for The Riddlebox and The Ringmaster; he got Shaggy and Violent J to sign his arm in sharpie and got those inked; he had Red Pop and Rock 'n Rye 3-liter tattoos. But he also had stuff like the Skinny Puppy logo and the cover to Cannibal Corpse's Tomb of the Mutilated. His most striking tattoo was a six-inch anti-Nazi tattoo on his neck — the swastika with a bar through it. Jason was a SHARP and didn't want any confusion over his boots and braces. (This was back when our college town used to have an annual KKK march/riot.) Flash forward a couple of years, and I run into him at college. He's wrapping up his education degree, and did his student teaching in Detroit. He's still a huge, ripped dude, but is dressed like an Edwardian banker, with a high starched collar almost up to his chin. The tip of the anti-Nazi circle was still a little visible, and he was having to have it lasered off because he wanted to teach in (the ostensibly more liberal) Ann Arbor school district. Ann Arbor had a more lenient policy on tattoos overall, but he was told that he couldn't work with a "Nazi tattoo." He tried to argue that it was anti-Nazi, and that this should be readily apparent, but was told that the swastika meant Nazis no matter what. He said that it was the only tattoo he regretted, even after he'd covered up a lot of the other ones, not least because once he added in the cost of lasering it off it came out to multiple thousands of dollars more than even his giant back pieces. The last time I ran into him, he had it almost totally removed but was still incredulous that no one had any problem with "Down With The Clown" or the Psychopathic logo, but an anti-Nazi tattoo was what was beyond the pale.

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:03:04 -0800

Unlike most people here, I mostly agree with the original article, and I think Tim Hendricks' response makes him look kind of like a dick too. Especially this, about the time he made an exception to his rule about neck and hand tattoos on people who are not heavily tattooed: "he also proved to me that he has his own construction business and his tattoos would not effect his livelihood" And you know what? Fuck that. Name one other business, contractor, artist or creative for hire where I'd have to prove my worth and financial stability beyond being able to pay their fee for them to do work for me. And this is a reflection of tattoo artists' oversized egos in general. I have several tattoos, and I'm getting more (with the next two I have planned, I'd probably be up to the point where I'd qualify for a neck tattoo in the eyes of these people), but tattoo artists view of themselves and the reality of what they do is badly, hugely mismatched. Almost all of them think of themselves as really important and artists, with a code of ethics, obligations not just to the client, but to themselves, to other tattoo artists, to the world at large, and so on, you can't become a tattoo artist in any other way than being an apprentice, which means being treated like shit by another artists for a few years (apprentice systems in general tend towards that, and apprentice systems in artistic, self-aggrandizing trades even more so), and so on and so forth. But the reality is that tattoo artists spend 98% of their time doing boring, uninteresting, unoriginal, and tacky work. Most tattoos are shit, and most clients want tattoos that in no way can be considered art. You can execute those tattoos with good craftmanship, of course, and good tattoo artists do, but even most tattoo artists have bad taste and aren't as much artists as artesans, at best. They spend their time doing this because it pays the bills, of course, and that's fine. But they pretty much all have outsized egos and an incredibly grandiose view of themselves and their art. If you've done a hundred Chinese letter tattoos on people's wrists or the names and birthdates of people's kids on their arm, it's kind of ridiculous to say no to an adult woman who comes in with a clear idea of what she wants, just because you don't think she knows what's good for herself. It's infantilizing, and I totally understand why she suspected sexism (though I won't rush to the conclusion that it actually was sexism, as opposed to just plain pompous assholery. So yeah. Tattoo artists need to get over themselves. As an aside, I hope there will be some sort of computer-controlled automatic tattoo machine/printer type deal in the near future, so we can both have better, higher quality tattoos, designed by people who may well be better artists/graphic designers who can't be bothered to go through the aforementioned apprenticeship slavery shitfest, and we won't have to deal with pompous asses judging our lives and whether or not we can be trusted to make decisions about our own bodies.

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:07:29 -0800

(I'd like to add to the above that there are exceptions to the rule about tattoo artists being pompous and full of themselves. Some of the ones who have done work on me have been extremely nice and respectful, and the most humble and decent tattoo artist I've ever run into is now a highly respected (and highly valued) visual artist in his own right.)

By: still bill

still bill — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:13:12 -0800

In the tattooing world, this is a well known policy. I had full sleeves before I got my hands done, and all 3 tattooers that have since done stuff on my hands--2 of them very very well known tattooers--were very apprehensive about it. One of them was apprehensive even after seeing that I already had significant work on my hands. I don't know that any of my regular tattooers would do a piece on my neck, even though I'm totally covered and actually have the very bottom of my throat done. I'm a dude, and I'm firmly in a position in my life that my tattoos are unlikely to seriously negatively impact my happiness, but there's always a little handwringing over a neck or hand tattoo. On preview: Joakim Ziegler, NY Adorned is a serious shop, they aren't producing shit work there. And Hendricks is really fucking good, too. This: But the reality is that tattoo artists spend 98% of their time doing boring, uninteresting, unoriginal, and tacky work. Most tattoos are shit, and most clients want tattoos that in no way can be considered art. You can execute those tattoos with good craftmanship, of course, and good tattoo artists do, but even most tattoo artists have bad taste and aren't as much artists as artesans, at best. They spend their time doing this because it pays the bills, of course, and that's fine. But they pretty much all have outsized egos and an incredibly grandiose view of themselves and their art. is a huge and wildly inaccurate generalization. Especially when applied to NY Adorned or Tim Hendricks.

By: bobobox

bobobox — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:23:33 -0800

I am genuinely pretty sad that we live in a world where neck and face tattoos are still socially unacceptable. Boo. My favorite point here was zippy's upthread: This intersection of "it's my body, and I want a professional to do a thing for me without shaming me" and "I'm a professional, and I don't want to do things you or I will regret" is fascinating. I'm way into personal autonomy and I felt pretty strongly that you yourself can decide what happens to your body... until I started getting into a profession where I will have to Do Things to people and be actively involved in their decisions and now I see the autonomy of the professional in there too.

By: biscotti

biscotti — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:24:56 -0800

a huge, unfinished haunted house on her thing what

By: corb

corb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:26:59 -0800

Any other kind of tattoo just signifies middle class aspirations So my giant honking deployment/war upper arm tatt signifies my middle class aspirations? Er....good to know, I guess, since I apparently got it included in the price of getting a deeply meaningful and personal piece of ink forever with me!

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:27:56 -0800

Listen, I've had beers with NYC tattoo artists - I'm not saying everyone is a paragon of humility. There's a lot of shit talk about shitty clients and snobbery. Not arguing there. At a certain point, though? When your art is so highly in demand that you're turning clients away? You certainly can turn down whoever and whomever you want to. There's about a zero percent chance Tim Hendricks is going to tattoo some Chinese symbols on you. It's a waste of his talent - someone else is waiting to get a seven thousand dollar backpiece of a cobra fighting a jetliner fighting a gorilla. Hell, as misskaz alluded to above, there's a local tattoo studio that's stopped taking client-proposed projects. At all. The artists suggest tattoo ideas, and clients email to say "me!" Is this kind of egotistical and grandiose? Yeah. I admit I was kind of pissed I couldn't get anymore work done there. But the artist there had stopped taking on new clients years before. She could afford to. So many people wanted her distinct style and specific talent that she could tell everyone who wanted something she found difficult or boring to fuck off. Now she's even more popular, to the point that she can tell you to fuck off unless you want exactly the tattoo she's interested in tattooing.

By: wierdo

wierdo — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:29:30 -0800

Joakim Ziegler, how is it unreasonable to not want to be responsible for making it difficult/impossible for their client to find work in their chosen profession? That doesn't seem far off from people who are vegetarian for ethical reasons or any number of other things people decline to participate in because they choose not to be part of a perceived problem. And personally, I think the artist was right. It does look tacky to me. Not that she needs or wants my approval or that I want her to need or want it. But she chose to put herself out there when she decided to write the article, so I feel OK having an opinion on it. I'm not a tattoo person in general, although I do appreciate the artistry in some of them, but I don't think it's any kind of problem that some people are into them. I'm glad the author found someone who would do the tattoo for her. It is her body and what matters is whether she likes it, not whether I our anyone else does or doesn't.

By: tittergrrl

tittergrrl — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:32:21 -0800

This is the thing though. We have some people in this thread who were in a similar spot as the author as well. They wanted a neck tattoo (or some other location where a tattoo artist refused/was uneasy of inking), and instead of first not-so-subtly accusing said tattoo artist of sexism and losing their shit ("I was so infuriated I cannot remember exactly what I said but it was something to the effect of, "Are you fucking kidding me? I'm not going to give you money after that, let alone have you touch me or put art on my body!" And then we walked out."), they talked it out with their tattooist, and brought them around to get them to do the tattoo or work out something that was amenable to both. Now maybe there was an extended conversation between herself and Dan, but I kind of doubt it. Perhaps if she handled it in a more measured manner, things may have worked out differently. Also off-putting was her comment regarding East Side Ink's initial uneasiness/warnings to her regarding hand and neck tattoos. To wit: "I was still pretty upset, so I'm not sure if I told her about the advent of lasers or just thought it." Was that snark really necessary? It's all just very self-serving.

By: corb

corb — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:37:30 -0800

Yeah, there are a lot of quality shops that really only do big pieces.

By: roger ackroyd

roger ackroyd — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:39:12 -0800

Not to be all Helen Lovejoy but I honestly think that getting your child's name tattooed on your neck is something you should wait to do until the child is old enough to not die of embarrassment.

By: MattMangels

MattMangels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:41:12 -0800

Perhaps if she handled it in a more measured manner, things may have worked out differently. This is obviously true, but I have a feeling a lot of people on here would call this a "tone argument". As if we're all robots and people's tone and word choices should have no consequences.

By: MisantropicPainforest

MisantropicPainforest — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:41:26 -0800

Fuck that. I'm going to do it before they are out of the womb

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:44:58 -0800

This is obviously true, but I have a feeling a lot of people on here would call this a "tone argument". Indeed. But the whole incident discussed in the post boils down in a lot of ways to a tone argument, as well. If the artist had declined to perform the commissioned work in a manner that the client could not have construed as rude or sexist, we wouldn't be here. Tone actually does matter sometimes.

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:45:39 -0800

I don't know if I'd call this a tone argument. I mean she literally claims to have broken down and walked out of the studio before engaging any further with the artist. There was a lot she could have done to have this work out differently, but instead she's the one who comes across as childish and unprofessional. Usually a tattoo is best approached as a conversation with your chosen artist, instead of a "here I want this do it now okay bye."

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:53:41 -0800

"a huge, unfinished haunted house on her thing what" Thigh, sorry. It started about mid-ankle and went up to about mid-quad and was mostly just an outline of, like, one of those Scooby Doo backgrounds. (She is the same person who accidentally sent me a text with a picture of her new genital piercing, leading to one of the most awkward, literal ass-covering work discussions I've ever had.)

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:58:55 -0800

still bill: "is a huge and wildly inaccurate generalization. Especially when applied to NY Adorned or Tim Hendricks." I'm sure it is when applied to that shop and that artist. I stand by it when it comes to artists in general. It might well be that her mistake was to go to a really high-level artist to get this done, and if you're a rockstar top 1% artist and in ridiculous demand, by all means, knock yourself out. But the attitude is not at all limited to those artists, quite the opposite, I'd say 95% of artists I've run into have ridiculously high thoughts about themselves and their work. The other 5% are an even split between normal, humble, reasonable artists of varying skill/artistry and hacks who have no skill at all, but are at least honest about that.

By: ernielundquist

ernielundquist — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:04:50 -0800

I totally get that some tattoo artists are probably jerks, but people turn down work in pretty much any profession, and especially in creative fields where they're doing custom work. I do freelance writing, and when I'm getting enough other work, I turn projects down for all kinds of reasons. If the company, the industry, or the project itself is sketchy, if the client seems squirrely or boorish, or even if it's just boring or stupid or I don't feel like it. It would be super-weird if one of those not-clients did what she's doing to this guy.

By: MattMangels

MattMangels — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:06:56 -0800

I can easily imagine a female tattoo artist posting an article to Jezebel about a male client who walked in DEMANDING (because men see women as servants to do their bidding) a tattoo that the artist refused to do, and musing about the entitled nature of males.

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:06:59 -0800

wierdo: "Joakim Ziegler, how is it unreasonable to not want to be responsible for making it difficult/impossible for their client to find work in their chosen profession? That doesn't seem far off from people who are vegetarian for ethical reasons or any number of other things people decline to participate in because they choose not to be part of a perceived problem." Yeah, or, you know, bakers who don't want to bake cakes for gay weddings. If you're a vegan and you don't want to serve meat, don't become a waiter, and if you don't want to tattoo people the designs they want, don't become a tattoo artist. With the added problem in the tattoo artist's case that you're not making an ethical decision about what you want and don't want to do, like eating meat, you're presuming to know better than your client what they should and shouldn't do with their body and what that would do for their future career or whatever. I have a good job that I love, in an industry I love, where I have lots of contact with clients of all kinds, social classes, and so on, and I'd like to think that I'm a better judge of how my clients will react to my tattoos than some random tattoo artist and his holier than thou judgment of the day.

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:09:20 -0800

What? No. I'm an artist, and if I go freelance and someone asks me to make some design I don't feel like working on, I should be able to say no without someone telling me I shouldn't have become an artist.

By: turbid dahlia

turbid dahlia — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:15:58 -0800

Last tattoo I got (this) the tattooist told me a fun story about a bikie he knew who literally punched a guy's eye out of his head and then forced the guy to eat his own eyeball. I was like, wow, fun story, pal. Then he said I could come back for a free touchup in a few weeks. That was four years ago, I guess I should make a booking. Not that it matters because I can't even see the fucking tattoo any more because I got too much muscles now.

By: beefetish

beefetish — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:22:17 -0800

Man I am covered in tattoos and I still remember when I was getting my inner lip tattooed, I went into a couple shops that I had not gotten work from and they refused. I was not particularly outraged but they also weren't being dicks about it. IDK. I see tattoo work as collaborative, they are the experts putting forever pictures on your main visible organ. This reminds me that I'd like to get more tattoos. God. also dbr WOOP WOOP i kind of regret not going to the gathering in 02 when my dear old high school friend was trapped in ohio

By: datawrangler

datawrangler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:25:46 -0800

Ami James (tattoo artist), who does have a neck tattoo (among many other tattoos) has said that he makes very certain a person wants a neck tattoo before doing it, because it's the only one he's got that he regrets (because, as stated upthread and often) people make assumptions about him all the time. In his case, it's airport security and the like.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:32:05 -0800

Lexica: "Is the Russian artist you're thinking of Sasha Unisex, dejah420? She does amazing work." Her work is extraordinary...what an astonishing color palette. I was thinking of Aleksey Platunov, but also in St. Petersburg is yanina viland, who also does amazing watercolor-like tattoos. I love both of their work so much, quite possibly because it's completely unobtainable.

By: Lexica

Lexica — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:36:38 -0800

Re unobtainable: I have daydreams of crowdfunding a "bring Sasha Unisex to the West Coast of the USA!" trip. And if she ever comes to a tattoo convention anywhere within 1,000 miles of me, I'm there.

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:38:42 -0800

Lexica, I'm so in.

By: a lungful of dragon

a lungful of dragon — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:53:15 -0800

Re: Art and tattoos, I'm reminded of this tale by Roald Dahl. Not everything he wrote was about chocolate factories.

By: rtimmel

rtimmel — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:54:59 -0800

Hell, as misskaz alluded to above, there's a local tattoo studio that's stopped taking client-proposed projects. At all. The artists suggest tattoo ideas, and clients email to say "me!" I never really considered getting a tattoo because I never saw anything that I would want for the rest of my life. Ester Garcia's work may change my mind.

By: Room 641-A

Room 641-A — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:55:16 -0800

Lexica, I'm so in. Wow, me, too. I love all my tattoos. I started getting them in the early 80s and my only regret is that artists like this, and all the young(er) women I see today with beautiful sleeves and brilliant designs, like Juliet Banana's, weren't as common, and there wasn't an internet to gather ideas and inspirations. Now, if I wanted something bigger I'd have to cover something else, and I'm almost out of the good spots for randomly placed smaller designs.

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 18:03:49 -0800

datawrangler: "Ami James (tattoo artist), who does have a neck tattoo (among many other tattoos) has said that he makes very certain a person wants a neck tattoo before doing it, because it's the only one he's got that he regrets (because, as stated upthread and often) people make assumptions about him all the time. In his case, it's airport security and the like." Ami James, at least in his reality TV show persona, is a pretty pompous asshole himself, but this is about what I'd expect from a professional, not "No, won't do that unless you tell me your life story and I deem you worthy".

By: nadawi

nadawi — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 18:12:44 -0800

it seems really weird to me that she'd expect a shop that has no idea who she is to take her as a walk-in for a neck tattoo - especially that shop. if i wanted a neck tattoo, i'm pretty sure i could get one - and i have no tattoos - but that's because i know a tattoo artist who knows my life and would feel confident that i understood what i was asking for. if i went to another reputable shop in town and asked for a neck tattoo, i'd expect to be turned down - and i'm in bumfuck arkansas, so they'll tattoo all sorts of shit that people on the coasts might balk at.

By: tautological

tautological — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 18:25:11 -0800

Those Sasha Unisex pieces are just amazing. I love painterly tattoo work like that - I doubt I'll ever get one personally, but if I ever did, it'd be something like that.

By: turbid dahlia

turbid dahlia — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 18:48:00 -0800

Oh wow that Sasha Unisex stuff is just great!

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:02:02 -0800

"You can discuss it with Mr. Wright's assistant, but I'm not sure they'll let you get a big garage." Shit, you commissioned a house from FLW and you counted yourself lucky if he let you have furniture.

By: Revvy

Revvy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:06:37 -0800

My wife has a tattoo on her neck and she's a nanny. The tattoo is in UV reactive ink and can't be seen without a blacklight. She doesn't like being told, "No."

By: Dip Flash

Dip Flash — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:30:14 -0800

She doesn't come off well in her own story. There are plenty of insufferable people in the tattoo world, and she may have met some of them, but she sounds awful.

By: capricorn

capricorn — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:30:54 -0800

Yeah, look, see if you're trying to tell someone that you have a policy of generally not doing neck tattoos, you say "we have a policy of generally not doing neck tattoos for people who don't already have a lot of tattoos" (essentially what Josh in article #1 does) and if they press, you say "it's not about you personally, we've gotten a lot of people coming back to us angry that we did it and so we've created a blanket policy about it. There are other places in NYC where you can get this done." You don't tell them it will look "tacky", and you definitely don't compare their body to "an unbaked cake" which is really gross and objectifying (not in a sexist way; I'm not sure I buy the sexism angle either). Speaking of Josh, though, I find it hilarious that he actually asked if she would consider moving it. Your whole premise is that you don't think people who can't commit to tattoos should have them, and then you treat them as completely fungible no matter where they are located on the body? I'm honestly surprised (mostly just out of personal ignorance about the process) to learn that people feel comfortable walking into a shop, meeting their artist, and having work done on the same day. Not because I don't think people can commit - because if it were me I'd be worried the artist would screw it up! I'd definitely want to get to know them and do a consultation and have them do a mockup for me. I've got a small piercing and the shop that did it uses this process, but that's because they like to do pieces that are unique to each customer, so I do see the difference. And yet. But maybe that's just me and my lack of desire to commit to things. I love tattoos and see so many gorgeous ones all the time, but I can't come up with anything I could personally commit to inking on myself! Also, those photos of laser removal processes are not relevant to either article aside from that passing mention of laser removal. OP, I really wish you hadn't included them. Maybe you just intended them as illustrative, but it feels like you're trying to influence how I perceive the articles. It's like when PETA shows me pictures of sad animals as if they don't think I know that when I eat meat I am eating an animal. It feels patronizing.

By: capricorn

capricorn — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:35:58 -0800

I guess after thinking about it more (like 5 minutes more), I think the reason she perceives it as sexism even if it isn't necessarily is because it's gatekeeping, which tends to be targeted at women more than men. While it bugs me to use another imperfect analogy, it's the same kind of thing that happens when you get grilled on tiny minor details at the comic book shop because you don't look the way they expect a comic book nerd to look.

By: sockermom

sockermom — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:38:42 -0800

True story: I know a guy who has the word APATHETIC across his neck in huge letters. The A is unfortunately not visible when looking at him head on, so it looks like it says PATHETIC. Fortunately, he doesn't really care.

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:08:00 -0800

You could even say it's written all over him.

By: sfkiddo

sfkiddo — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:17:07 -0800

Her next tattoo should be a giant chip on her shoulder.

By: the agents of KAOS

the agents of KAOS — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:38:19 -0800

I'm way into personal autonomy and I felt pretty strongly that you yourself can decide what happens to your body... until I started getting into a profession where I will have to Do Things to people and be actively involved in their decisions and now I see the autonomy of the professional in there too. This is how doctors justify not allowing women to get sterilised, because they are professionals and don't want to be involved in ruining those women's lives. See also referrals for abortion, prescribing contraceptives, etc etc. Personally I think the 'rebuttal' article was bullshit, and if the writer wanted to make any valuable points about informed consent in tattooing he wouldn't have needed to invoke the specter of a drunk client.

By: biddeford

biddeford — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:38:22 -0800

I've never considered getting a tattoo myself (I'm too indecisive) but after seeing Vanina Viland's work from dejah420"s link above, I'm lusting for some ink. (Although I would settle for this awesome Bobby Hill homage.)

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 23:08:17 -0800

By: Bella Donna

Bella Donna — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 23:31:36 -0800

I honestly think that getting your child's name tattooed on your neck is something you should wait to do until the child is old enough to not die of embarrassment. Maybe, but you'll be dead by then. Some teen I know wanted a tat of Lilla My from the Moomin troll books for her 18th birthday. I was skeptical but it looks fabulous. I remain tat-free and without piercings apart from my ear lobes. Still, I enjoy seeing them on others.

By: the agents of KAOS

the agents of KAOS — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 23:37:45 -0800

It's quite the leap to go from "An artist refused to do a piece for me" to "This is how doctors deny personal autonomy to women." I understand something under the surface can look similar, but when you're dealing with something that's basically an artform the similarity falters. Absolutely. You want to say tattoo artists are artistic snowflakes who don't have to be involved in any tattoo art that they don't want to make? I would agree. You want to argue that tattoo artists are professionals with an ethical responsibility to their clients which includes not allowing them to make irresponsible decisions? I will push back very strongly against your proposal that professional ethical responsibilities include not 'letting' informed, sane, sober adults decide what happens to their body. You can't have your artistic flakiness and eat your responsible professionalism too.

By: Joakim Ziegler

Joakim Ziegler — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 00:43:08 -0800

I think it's a mistake to think that tattooing is always an artform. It can be, of course, but it is very often more like a craft (like most graphic design), or even simple reproduction. Bakers refusing to bake wedding cakes is a better analogy than an artist refusing to paint something for your living room. And hey, where have we heard controversy about bakers refusing to bake their customers' wedding cakes lately?

By: still bill

still bill — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 01:25:00 -0800

Wait, so because baking is a craft, and you say tattooing is a craft, and because we all agree that homophobic bakers refusing to do gay wedding cakes are assholes, that means tattooers who refuse to do certain tattoos must also be assholes? Just because one type of worker denies a service because they're an asshole does not mean that any worker denying service is an asshole. Every tattooer I know who is a good tattooer and a good person has a few very very simple rules for their work: no tattoos on drunk people, no tattoos on kids, no racist/hateful tattoos, and no neck/face/hand tattoos on people relatively uncovered. I don't have any issue at all with those rules, and I've never seen them enforced along gendered lines (although I'm sure that does happen, to some extent, I don't think it happened in the author's experience).

By: talking leaf

talking leaf — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 03:46:32 -0800

When I see any sort of tattoos on someone at this point in time, I assume they obtained some sort of vocational degree like an MBA or a JD. YMMV. Do what thou wilt.

By: tocts

tocts — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 04:47:29 -0800

Bakers refusing to bake wedding cakes is a better analogy than an artist refusing to paint something for your living room. And hey, where have we heard controversy about bakers refusing to bake their customers' wedding cakes lately? This is a bad analogy, and I don't understand why it keeps getting put forth. There's an enormous difference between refusing service outright, and refusing a specific creative direction from a client. A baker refusing to make the kinds of cakes they already make for a gay wedding is bullshit. However, a baker refusing to go outside of certain creative parameters is not. There's not a lot of similarity between "I'm not putting the names of two women on this cake that is otherwise just like the ones I make all the time!" and "I'm not going to make you a Giger-esque nightmare landscape of a cake, regardless of who is doing the asking*". * Note that I'd actually love to have such a cake, but I can understand various reasons a baker might not want to make it, and they're not somehow trampling my rights by refusing it

By: capricorn

capricorn — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 05:25:42 -0800

A great stylist can absolutely refuse to provide you with that stupid haircut you want. A professional baker can refuse to make that wedding penis cake you've drawn up (please invite me to the party though). Etc. Yup, of course they can. They can say "I will not do this." Not "you should not do this."

By: Guy Smiley

Guy Smiley — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 06:34:48 -0800

"Hey man. What you're about to do ... that's really, really Not Okay."

By: nadawi

nadawi — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 06:38:26 -0800

we don't even know that's what he said because there's a lot about her account that seems off, but even if it was, "tattoo artist was spikey and not perfectly couth" isn't exactly a shocking headline. a walk in cheap tattoo with an unknown artist is also in no way comparable to a woman being unable to get medical procedures that affect fertility.

By: p3t3

p3t3 — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 07:04:10 -0800

I used to hang out with Jane Marie in high school and college, going to Detroit warehouse parties together, etc, and her mom was my favorite manager at Espresso Royale in Ann Arbor. Jane's ability to tell people off while still being charming and staying on their good side is usually one of her many talents. I think the latter half of that gets lost a bit in written form. I'd agree that the photos are a step too far though, but then again, it's for Jezebel. I'm sure they're happy with as much controversy as any writer will give them.

By: still bill

still bill — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 07:16:01 -0800

Seconding nadawi above: if the issue boils down to 'this tattooer talked to me in a way that I didn't find totally nice and considerate', I don't see at all how it merits a headline. And if it doesn't merit a headline, it certainly doesn't merit all of the totally rude comments about/toward the staff of Adorned or the shop she eventually landed at, or the attempt to use a tattooer's portfolio as some kind of vague proof of their awfulness. Most of all, people who treat tattooers like that--this is what you're going to tattoo on me, shut up and do it, my money gives me rights, etc.--are not pleasant, and I wouldn't want to tattoo them anyway if I was an in-demand artist like the tattooers at Adorned. If a tattooer is hesitant to do a piece--for any reason--the proper response is to talk to them, and see if you can find a middle ground agreeable to all parties. If you can't, it's not in anyone's interest to do anything other than keep looking until you find someone who will do it. It's a collaborative process, and it is more meaningful to any decent tattooer than a simple commercial transaction, and that's a good thing.

By: exogenous

exogenous — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 07:29:32 -0800

Guy Smiley: ""Hey man. What you're about to do ... that's really, really Not Okay."" Yeah! The original Murky Coffee website is no longer, but this post on Consumerist seems to sum it up pretty well. In brief: customer ordered espresso over ice, barista said it was against policy, customer ordered separate espresso and ice, barista comes back with the "Not Okay" statement, customer leaves nasty note in the tip jar, coffee shop owner blogs addressing espresso & ice guy "if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick."

By: phearlez

phearlez — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 07:56:49 -0800

In the time since the dickpunch incident Nick Cho has managed to crash&burn several business/locations (usually with unpaid taxes but it's pretty well assumed he stiffed vendors too) and fall off the face of the earth. Jeff Simmermon, on the other hand, continues to make good art. One of them acknowledges being kind of hot-headed over this incident. I'll let you guess who. I will acknowledge bias here, having had a few beers with Jeff and finding him cordial and interesting and having been to Cho's business and finding it mediocre and staffed with jerky people.

By: desuetude

desuetude — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 07:58:07 -0800

> Yup, of course they can. They can say "I will not do this." Not "you should not do this. Exactly. And not "you cannot do this."

By: nadawi

nadawi — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:16:15 -0800

i mean, she got told no repeatedly from the moment she walked in, it's not surprising that the artist might say it more forcefully to get her to hear it. she doesn't have the right to force someone to do the work and they don't have to be nice about turning her down especially if she was getting belligerent about it.

By: ftm

ftm — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:26:13 -0800

They absolutely can tell her that it would be unwise to do something. This is a free country. She's not doing business with them, she doesn't have to listen to them, abide them, or hang out in the store any longer.

By: some loser

some loser — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:36:34 -0800

Am I being uncharitable in suspecting the point of this article was not to encourage thoughtful discussion but instead to generate outrage and therefore pageviews for the website upon which it appears? The not so thinly veiled insinuation of sexism was clunky and seemed like something an editor for the site in question might have wanted added so that it remained "relevant" to the website's audience. It's a bit reductionist of me, I'll admit, but at the same time, looking at all the tenuous comparisons here between the gay wedding cake and doctor/abortion stuff, it seems likely. So I guess, well done oh intrepid reporter!! You're not going to catch any fish^h^h^h^h clicks without bait, after all. It's fine to be upset about a percieved wrong, but this attempt at publicly shaming the artist seems rather exhibitionist considering the degree of the injury. This article could have just as easily been written about being denied use of the bathroom at the independent coffee shop because their policy is "washrooms for patrons only" and you didn't have any money on you with which to become a patron.

By: still bill

still bill — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:41:48 -0800

As has been mentioned, we really have no idea what was said to her, and her article doesn't seem to rely on any nuanced distinctions in those possibilities to make its point. Her point, in my reading of the article, is that she wanted a tattoo on her neck, and was willing to pay for it, and so by God she expects whoever she waves her wallet at to do it. Assuming that the worst of the possibilities presented is what happened, and the tattooer said "you should not/cannot do this", I think it's safe to assume that was the tattooer saying "I will not do this, because I don't think you should" without maybe thinking through every possible way that their exact words could be interpreted. I do not get the impression that anyone gave a fuck whatsoever what she did with her neck once she left their shop. They didn't follow her out and caution all other potential tattooers against tattooing her neck. It doesn't strike me as policing her body and limiting her autonomy, it strikes me as the tattooer policing their own shop and asserting their own autonomy as an artist/worker. In the last tattoo thread on here, we saw a lot of examples of the horrible gender policing that goes on around tattoos and tattooing. It's quite clearly an issue with some seriously fucked up gender and class issues. But I don't think this woman's experience (at least not as written in TFA) illustrates those issues, and I think her response to it has some ugly undertones of class privilege of its own.

By: bibliogrrl

bibliogrrl — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:42:58 -0800

I'm just coming in to say that as a middle aged (oh my god how the fuck did that happen) woman, my hand tattoos haven't really cost me any work, but then again, I don't think I would want to work somewhere where they would be a problem.

By: still bill

still bill — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:55:20 -0800

bibliogirl: I love your bunny tattoos! Knuckles are so rarely done right, and yours are really great! My knuckle tattoos--the ones on the knuckle that's higher up the finger than your bunnies--are my favorite of all of my many tattoos, and I've not found that they've been any hindrance in my life either. In fact, I actually think my tattoos have often helped in my academic life, and I worked in a state AG's office with tattoos visible past the cuffs of my suit for a while, too, and there was no issue. That said, I think it's totally wise to really really consider the ramifications of hand and neck/face tattoos. I really want some small work done on my face--just the corners of my eyes and my sideburn area--but am very hesitant to do it, even though I'm very very past the point of no return when it comes to visible tattoos. Even once I decide it's time for the face stuff, I realize it will be hard to get it done by the people I want to do it, because they're solid and traditional tattooers and so I'll need to convince them.

By: [insert clever name here]

[insert clever name here] — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:50:17 -0800

Lots of piercing makes me wince mostly because it looks painful to me (I know it's not, it just makes me think "Jesus I bet that hurt to get done.") Not entirely true! I got the cartilage of my left ear pierced. I love the piercing BUT it hurt like way more than I was expecting to get, and I had taken tylenol 3 before hand. And I can't sleep on that ear without waking up with pain in my entire ear two years later. In spite of that, my regret towards the pain is that I really wanted to get the right one pierced after the left one healed up, but that's clearly not possible. I do have a pain disorder though, so take that as you will.

By: everybody had matching towels

everybody had matching towels — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:15:09 -0800

When I got my latest tattoo, the artist mentioned that he loved when people came in for piercings, as he worked adjacent from the (curtained off) piercing area and made a game out of guessing what had been pierced based on the yelp from behind the curtain. He was, apparently, getting very good at it.

By: S'Tella Fabula

S'Tella Fabula — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:39:56 -0800

I don't have any trouble imagining a tattooer saying "you can't" get whatever tattoo to a relatively un-inked client. Even the nicest shops and most accomplished artists have bad days and word things poorly. Plus, I've heard some pretty untoward remarks made by customers and tattooers alike. People have strong emotions about tattoos (both for and against) and something about the shop environment encourages their expression. Quick story (I hope it's quick): A young white woman in her 20s came in for an appointment she'd booked long in advance (like 6 months). The note in the schedule said "floral design." What she really wanted was plumeria flowers on her lower back with big Olde English letters saying "carpe diem." The artist had drawn the flowers, but the text was a spur-of-the-moment addition. I heard the artist actually beg her not to go through with the letters. She wouldn't relent, and I still see her around midtown KC every once in a while. She loves the shit out of that tattoo. Well. As Fats Waller (maybe) said "everybody got they something." Oh, one more. Sorry! Can you tell I love my job? Last August, I had a screw-up with the schedule where we had two appointments in a row under the same name; they just had different phone numbers. It turned out to be two different women named Kendra, one at noon and the other at 2. First Kendra was a lovely 20-something who wanted her former boyfriend Jacob's name covered up on her upper arm. Second Kendra was an equally lovely early early early 20-something (like I have a daughter her age) who wanted her boyfriend Gregory's name tattooed on her ribcage. I think first Kendra would have been a good object lesson for second Kendra, but they never met. Stopping after this to bibliogrrl: I love your knuckle bunnies so much! Like, OMG so much! They are darling!

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:46:52 -0800

I love that Kendra story, S'Tella Fabula. There's a wide range between "I wouldn't do this" and "I don't think you should do this" and "You cannot do this." Unfortunately for Jane, the worst she quotes Dan saying is "Not gonna happen." So everyone pulling the "Omg they said SHE CAN'T to her face" outrage should probably reign that in.

By: erratic meatsack

erratic meatsack — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:50:44 -0800

Also to preemptively field the "But they said I'm not sure they'll let you to her!" responses, they have control over what they let people get in their shop and that would comfortably fall right in there. If you want to add an imaginary "...let you get that here" then knock yourself out. It makes no difference.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 12:55:50 -0800

Yeah, it's at best a good moment to say to the counterperson "okay, they can choose not to do it themselves but they do not get to "let me" do anything." People phrase stuff crappy sometimes and sometimes it's the metaphorical body rotting from the head down because management is snotty jerks and sometimes it's just someone making a one-off bad choice of words. But I guess if your business is getting outrage clicks then everything starts to look like a nail.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 14:33:45 -0800

"I used to hang out with Jane Marie in high school and college, going to Detroit warehouse parties together, etc, and her mom was my favorite manager at Espresso Royale in Ann Arbor." Oh man, when was that? I'm extra curious because I remember the huge fights over Espresso's No Visible Tattoos or Piercings policy.

By: p3t3

p3t3 — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:14:48 -0800

Oh man, when was that? I'm extra curious because I remember the huge fights over Espresso's No Visible Tattoos or Piercings policy. Around '95 - '00. I was just a regular customer there though, not an employee, so I had no idea about the policy fight!?! Interesting. If I remember right, Jane's mom ran the small North Campus location by the art school.

By: box

box — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 19:49:58 -0800

Lots of piercing makes me wince mostly because it looks painful to me (I know it's not) It is. It totally is. People, usually just making conversation, ask me sometimes 'Did that hurt?' (They're asking about my stretched earlobes, not the less-visible ones.) And, every time, I look them in the eye and say 'yes, it did.'

By: nadawi

nadawi — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 19:56:55 -0800

i really miss my lip ring sometimes because i loved when people asked about the pain and i'd just spin it back and forth. it left a scar so the oral fixation/ocd reason for getting it is still fulfilled, but i still miss it.

By: emptythought

emptythought — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 20:42:28 -0800

I think the "young woman getting her tubes tied" thing is superrrr bs and a really non applicable comparison. That said, i think there's another worthwhile juxtaposition here that made me close this and just stop caring. I'm a musician. Several of my friends are tattoo artists, one owns her own shop even after some well earned success. Several other friends have worked at shops, and nearly all of my friends have >2 tattoos. I'm just a weirdo i guess. That said, there's this huge undercurrent of something to the effect of, and this applies to all creative fields but there's lots of baggage with tattoos, hurr durr you're just a princessy artist why do you deserve to get paid that much that isn't a serious "real" job. And yet, as soon as it doesn't go her way -even when she sort of tees it up with a bit of that attitude- when trying to establish her "cred" or whatever, suddenly they're just a vendor doing the equivalent of refusing to sell her booze because she looks young or... something, with the added "but the sexism!" canard. I held off on responding and deleted my comment multiple times because i just couldn't figure out a way to say "no, you're just wrong and you're handling this is a really shitty petulant way" without basically being some shitty reddit bro saying sexism don't real, but that juxtaposition of artist = not a real job because they're so princessy and refuse work and stuff with the ethics in tattoo sexism sort of angle just keeps bringing back to get PO'd again. No one has refused to give her a service that would actually positively or in any serious way impact her life here. An artist said "i don't feel comfortable drawing that on you". She could have gone to any other shop. I realize it's mostly all been said, and i realize there's no perfect examples or victims and stuff but this is just the least sympathetic situation for me. She has the same entitled attitude as someone who expects a photographer to do their wedding for free for "portfolio". It's not a serious job until they say no, then it's an outrage.

By: divabat

divabat — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 20:50:02 -0800

The tattoo artist that did my backpiece is primarily a performance artist and activist; tattooing is how she makes money on the side. She has a strong policy of not doing tattoos that were culturally appropriative - for example, random lettering in a language that isn't yours, religious iconography that isn't from your faith, etc. This was partly why I chose her - I knew she would respect my cultural heritage and vision (a tattoo that looks like henna but is permanent), and we shared the same politics.

By: emptythought

emptythought — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 20:59:29 -0800

Admittedly, part of me yearns for the days of Not Internet when this was just "I went to Adorned to get a tattoo and the guy was kind of a dick, I'm going to talk about this when I meet my friends at the bar" rather than a national tattoo issue. There's a definitely an element of like, internet witch hunt mob to this too. Not specifically this, but just this kind of stuff in general. I'm really really uncomfortable with this kind of stuff when it's like "this is just a person at some local shop, but i'm going to nationally shame them on the internet and bring a huge shitstorm down upon them for their perceived slight against me!" It's one thing to tell your friends, it's another thing to attempt to rally the internet hate machine. I think that might be part of the reason i'm so disgusted by this. This isn't like, the best buy manager said something sexist to her. This is some guy, at a little neighborhood tattoo shop, who didn't feel comfortable doing this. What?

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 22:58:19 -0800

"Around '95 - '00. I was just a regular customer there though, not an employee, so I had no idea about the policy fight!?! Interesting. If I remember right, Jane's mom ran the small North Campus location by the art school." God it took me like an hour to find this — Their new dress code included no visible tattoos, piercings or unnatural hair colors. I remembered it being a big deal, especially since I was right at the age when I wanted to hang out at coffee shops and it hit that classic Ann Arbor trope of, "Everything was ruined the year before you got here." See also: There's no bar as good as the Del; there were no good Ann Arbor bands after the Tech Center burned; PFC has sucked since Wildflower closed; Borders has sucked since it moved from State Street; something something Drakes something something Angelo's.

By: p3t3

p3t3 — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 23:34:23 -0800

Holy Shit, Klang, thanks for finding that! And sorry to others for the townie talk tangent, but I actually briefly dated the girl, Dawn, in the article photo! Unexpected blast from the past; and I'm now embarrassed for having no memory of this news despite my proximity to plenty of the folks involved. PS - I remember hanging out in the State Street Borders' basement as a kid waiting for my dad to quit reading all the books.

By: tremspeed

tremspeed — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:05:14 -0800

I got tattooed at another pretty famous Brooklyn tattoo shop by one of their more famous artists (all relatively speaking), and it was definitely a vetting process wrt the design I wanted. I wound up getting it because my design was unusual and interesting in the mind of that particular artist. The simple fact of the matter is that the artists that work at these shops get enough inquiries to be able to turn stuff away. They want to do stuff that they can show off on instagram and attract clients, and hopefully be part of their oeuvre of cohesive work. A simple black and white name is not exciting to them nor would it further their career.

By: cirhosis

cirhosis — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 06:52:54 -0800

This article includes a response from the artist himself No, You Can't Get a Fucking Neck Tattoo, Jane Marie

By: divabat

divabat — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 17:31:12 -0800

(the least being that we had to read something that used the term "luh-hiterally"—we bet that more than a few Jezebel readers are those who consider themselves rebellious because they have the Sex Pistols credit card in their handbags)

Wow, way to make people lose sympathy for your side, dude. (also can white people stop talking about tribes and traditions for something that was originally an indigenous art kthx)

By: nadawi

nadawi — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 17:35:04 -0800

i did love this part of the artist's statement :

Although I appreciate all of the support I have received from the tattoo community, I would also like to ask that all the harsh name-calling directed at "SeeJaneMarie" stop now. We strongly disagree with her opinion, but I also strongly disagree with calling women "b***hes" or "c**ts" for having strong opinions, even if those opinions are misguided.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 17:59:49 -0800

"(also can white people stop talking about tribes and traditions for something that was originally an indigenous art kthx)" "Indigenous art" in that context is kinda dubious, innit? I mean, indigenous where? With at least 5,000 years of European practice, historical traditions attested throughout the world, and a romanticizing myth about Europeans reacquiring tattooing as an art from Polynesians (instead of just picking up the word), seems like it's hardly worth a "kthx" to refer to tribes and traditions. I mean, fuck, even if we're just talking about the quasi-Naval traditions, I'd think after at least 400 years of well-attested European usage in global trade routes that'd be enough time to establish a traditional code of ethics.

By: Dip Flash

Dip Flash — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 19:44:49 -0800

i did love this part of the artist's statement : I thought that was a classy moment, and overall a thoughtful and well-done response. (The intro wasn't so great, but that's not the artist's fault.)

By: I-baLL

I-baLL — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 20:24:07 -0800

"Wow, way to make people lose sympathy for your side, dude." The tattoo artist wasn't the one who wrote that. His response is below that.

By: ChurchHatesTucker

ChurchHatesTucker — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 20:32:50 -0800

From the artist in question:

I myself am still collecting tattoos, and do not have hand or neck tattoos yet.

So, presumably not a sexist stance.

By: Juliet Banana

Juliet Banana — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 20:47:49 -0800

I'm not a fan of Inked Magazine's headline, tone, or jokes either. I thought the actual response from the artist Dan was pretty cool, though. I don't believe men are trying to ally themselves with feminism (or at least not-outright-misogyny) when they list off their female family members. I don't believe them when they try to cozy up to women. I believe them when they call out their boys on their shit and tell them to knock sexist shit off. I'm not saying he deserves a giant trophy for it, but there's a lot of people who wouldn't take the time to repeatedly tell his own community* to knock off slagging on Jane Marie. And I believe him when he says he wouldn't tattoo the neck of a guy with some song lyrics on his forearm and a shamrock on his chest. *i know from experience that it's pretty not fun to call your own community out. ask me about being the bummer who is ruining punk with all my sjw rules and funkilling!

By: Elysum

Elysum — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:10:03 -0800

Wow, kudos to the original artist. Dan's reply was all class. Not only the point that nadawi pointed out, but at the end, the only apology he wanted was: "Please apologize to my customers whose tattoos you mocked in your failed attempt to hurt my career in order to bolster yours."

By: desuetude

desuetude — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 09:12:51 -0800

Her misguided attempt to make this a feminist issue is a disservice to true feminism. It trivializes it in a wolf cry and makes slanderous assumptions of my character (just ask my mother, three big sisters, three beautiful nieces, and all of my wonderful female friends). I am a far cry from a misogynist. His response was fine until he got to the part where he determines what "true feminism" is, invoked his female relatives as an appeal to authority, then upgraded Jane Marie's accusation of him exhibiting sexist behavior into a claim that he is a misogynist. Sigh.

By: divined by radio

divined by radio — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 10:36:20 -0800

Yeah, that part grossed me the hell out, too. I'm not sure if it's just because I'm the kind of person who is basically EpiPen-level allergic to men referring to themselves feminists at all, let alone as arbiters of "true" feminism, let alone invoking the existence of female friends and relatives in order to do so, but reading the words "I am a far cry from a misogynist" after a fairly misogynistic little rant made me pull over and spill out a whole dumptruck full of NOPE. On a happier note related to my last comment, I spent my weekend in the company of a whole bunch of juggalos after a very long absence from the scene, and am very pleased to report that they are still pretty much the physical manifestation of love itself. So many whoops were emitted and echoed back, so many intoxicants were distributed and shared, so much generosity was displayed, so many matching tattoos were showed off, pointed out, and planned, so many strangers introduced themselves to other strangers without an ounce of insecurity or discomfort, and so much unequivocal acceptance was given and received. ("That's why we call it family.") I'm a little bummed to not be Gathering-bound this year -- what up to all my ninjas who have MeMailed me about this, I hope you have the best time ever! -- but if any of y'all have a chance to catch Twiztid out there or when they swing back around on tour in the fall, please go and tear it up for me, because they have my very favorite bunch of fans and are my very favorite pair of dudes in the whole terrible world. Plus one of them has his own face tattooed on himself, and how can you argue with that?

By: Elysum

Elysum — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 10:52:50 -0800

Ok, so if he has a right as a service provider, to choose what kind of work he does, and in the process, does not discriminate based on gender/age/race etc who he *does* that work on... And by all accounts, he has applied the no hands, no necks rule equally to women and men... (Seriously, am I missing something here?) Then no, there is no feminist basis for her accusation. Which means, yes, she did a disservice to feminism. People make mistakes, and have bad days, they just usually aren't in a position to go on a bullying rant online. She's a professional writer, and yet I didn't support her view of the situation as presented in her own words. The tattoo artist, who isn't a professional writer, managed to be pretty respectful and gracious in response to a nasty situation, and make it clear in multiple ways that he supports women, and feminism, before and above his own reaction to the situation, and does not equate them with Jane Marie's actions. What exactly, would have been the perfect rebuttal?

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 08:18:57 -0800

One without mistakes. One mistake is a huge hook upon which many demonizing coats can be hung. A sincere but flustered response written in reply to an angry rant provides a coatroom. But who when flustered remembers that what they write online might as well be written in stone ?

By: divined by radio

divined by radio — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 11:38:39 -0800

For me, as always, it just comes down to my own personal and deeply heartfelt desire for men -- #yesallmen, literally all men -- to just STOP whenever they feel moved to issue any kind of proclamation about feminism at all. This is especially true if said issuance is going to involve holding up the women in their lives as props to prove they, i.e. men who know women, cannot possibly exhibit misogynist behavior. I mean, OK, sure, they obviously CAN do that, it's a free country and it does serve a purpose, but it's almost certainly not the purpose that's intended. So for goodness' sakes, no one here is demonizing anyone. We're just noting that "I CAN'T be a misogynist, I think my female friends and relatives are BEAUTIFUL" is a) pretty much the most boring, predictable response to any/all accusations of sexist bias, ever and b) an appeal to false authority that doesn't do its point of origin or intended targets any favors. Watching men attempt to draw borders around what comprises "true feminism" anytime their feathers get ruffled by the insinuation that they might not actually be as progressive as they think they are reminds me of how white people (#yesallwhitepeople) react when they're accused of saying or doing something racist. It's gross, tired, and completely unnecessary.