Comments on: Who goes MAGA?

Who goes MAGA?

seanmpuckett — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:01:28 -0800

You may have read Dorothy Thompson's breathtakingly insightful 1941 Harper's article Who Goes Nazi?. Talla Lavin has updated it for our modern era in Who Goes MAGA?. You'll recognize your friends, family and neighbours, and maybe even yourself (but hopefully not in that way).

By: seanmpuckett

seanmpuckett — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:02:27 -0800

Note that the Harper's article didn't stop Hitler, and blog posts won't stop MAGA. If you can visibly resist please do so, for those who for whatever reason cannot.. If you're feeling overwhelmed with rage and feel helpless, well, that's the point of their shock-and-awe campaign. To beat the psychological warfare, pick just one thing specifically to get angry and focused about, and take action there. There are hundreds of millions of us, and the more people that throw sand in the machinery of fascism, the slower it will grind us down.

By: whatevernot

whatevernot — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:09:09 -0800

"He has joined MAGA with his whole heart because he is afraid, and he hates so loudly because he is jealous."

By: star gentle uterus

star gentle uterus — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:09:56 -0800

Note that the Harper's article didn't stop Hitler, and blog posts won't stop MAGA. You write this and then go on to encourage actions that will also have no effect whatsoever on the current situation. If it makes you feel better to take symbolic actions, then go for it, but it will make no actual difference. Art didn't stop fascism. Anti-fascist groups didn't stop fascism. Workers' groups and protest groups didn't stop fascism. They were all suppressed and slaughtered. The only thing that stopped fascism was a gigantic war.

By: AlSweigart

AlSweigart — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:10:49 -0800

Previously: "Dorothy on Adolph" Previously: "Reminding ourselves of how we came to have the values we have"

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:22:25 -0800

I need to reread the Thompson piece again (I read it some years back when I was doing research on Rose Wilder Lane, who was no doubt one of the thinly-veiled people she profiled) but I remember the distinct feeling of recognition; the ordinariness of both kinds of people in her piece. (yes, there were lots of references to patrician WASP signals in there but everyone felt like a human.) This update would only be recognizable if my cohort consisted entirely of Professional Internet Caricatures. Not saying they're not out there, but just...yeah, shock of shocks, the worst people you can think of are bad?

By: EmpressCallipygos

EmpressCallipygos — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:26:10 -0800

You write this and then go on to encourage actions that will also have no effect whatsoever on the current situation. If it makes you feel better to take symbolic actions, then go for it, but it will make no actual difference. Art didn't stop fascism. Anti-fascist groups didn't stop fascism. Workers' groups and protest groups didn't stop fascism. They were all suppressed and slaughtered. The only thing that stopped fascism was a gigantic war. Okay, I'm going to take a different approach to my usual with this one...I'm still going to disagree with you, but just differently. You're wrong that "a gigantic war" actually "stopped fascism". Because - we have fascists still. World War II didn't stop "fascism", it defeated the Axis Powers. That's different. And military might was only part of what contributed to the defeat of the Axis Powers. Another thing that lead to their downfall was: the eroding resolve of the people within the Axis countries. A 2020 book released by the Army University Press mentions that alongside the military mistakes, the Axis faced internal pressures (a quote from a review of said book):

Arquilla offers what may have been the Axis's greatest strategic design blunder of the war—its ideology. Both German and Japanese invading forces quickly alienated the local populace through inhuman acts of barbarity. In many cases, the local populace viewed these forces as liberators and openly welcomed them. The Axis not only missed an opportunity to gain local support and volunteers to their cause, but they also created partisans who forced the Axis to divert manpower and resources toward antipartisan operations.

The "local populace[viewing] these forces as liberators" quickly changed their minds after living under the regime for a bit and realizing "oh, hang on", and then started to push back. There were active anti-Fascist movements in all Axis-occupied countries, it wasn't all the Allied forces sweeping in and saving the day. And while many members of the workers groups and protest groups you speak of were indeed "suppressed and slaughtered", it was not "all" - and they took a few of the Axis soldiers out themselves, thus weakening the Axis army overall. And the "art" you're decrying probably persuaded several people to continue to fight the Axis from within - weakening the Axis forces and ensuring an Allied victory. So I find it curious that you're dismissive of the role that citizens can play in defeating MAGA, since we have evidence that these very same things contributed to the defeat of the Axis powers. Care to explain what you DO think should be done?

By: Zumbador

Zumbador — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:35:27 -0800

From the article in the OP: Unto the last extremity of cruelty he will be there, offering his burnishing excuses. He no longer sees cruelty anymore, because a long time ago he trained himself not to. From this thread: Note that the Harper's article didn't stop Hitler, and blog posts won't stop MAGA. The way to stop people from doing whatever does stop fascism is to make us feel isolated, hopeless, and that nothing we can do can make a difference. Boiling down every single possible thing you might do to "will this thing STOP FACISM" is one of the ways of robbing yourself of power. And robbing other people too, as you say "what's the point of..." Writing a blog post absolutely can stop fascism, in that it can reach other people who feel the way you do, reminds them that we are not alone, that we are not powerless, that we can use our brains and imagination to see clearly what's going on around us, and also visualise that better world that we can then work towards. This particular article helps me to see what's in front of me with more accuracy, because the person who wrote it articulates my vague thoughts, that flit away from me because I'm tired and depressed. They help me catch those thoughts and show me that I'm not alone, that another person saw what I saw too, and they put words to it. They put words to it, and now I can build on from there. There are many different kinds of people, with many different ways of fighting fascism. All these small and not so small acts build upon one another. We will fail many times, and succeed many times.

By: jedicus

jedicus — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:38:34 -0800

Who goes MAGA? The senior government worker, who, burdened by student debt and the high cost of living, follows orders rather than resisting, knowing that there would be little safety net if they were fired for cause. The corporate executive, who, despite the billions in profits the company makes, will kowtow to the government rather than risk government contracts (witness Alphabet putting up zero resistance to renaming Mt. Denali and the Gulf of Mexico in Google Maps, so as not to jeopardize the billions it receives from the government). The university executive, who, burdened by ever-shrinking state support for education, follows orders rather than resisting, knowing that an end to federal grants could cause the school to fold. Or, for a private school, that resisting could cause the billionaires that make up the school's largest donors and the school's board of trustees to insist on their ouster. And everything else flows down from there, in government, business, and education. Thousands of self-serving decisions made out of fear (or avarice), and from there millions more, each fearing the person above them.

By: seanmpuckett

seanmpuckett — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 07:55:06 -0800

[ shouting ] NO Good lord no. If you can't dress up in black and defend the beautiful people with roses and signs, if you can't be someone with a sign, if you can't go to protests, if you can't let the air out of ICE tires, can't put a sign on your yard or wear a rainbow pin, even if you must, for whatever reason, comply, you can still GRIND THE GEARS of fascism by complying as slowly as possible.

By: Inspector.Gadget

Inspector.Gadget — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:01:46 -0800

The pissant sadist. The man who buys the biggest pickup truck on offer and has the emissions equipment removed even before overblown problems arise, parking it in handicapped spaces or half on the sidewalk. It never tows or hauls anything. A middle school bully, he was unable to carry it forward when his peers grew beyond him, but now delights in supposed strength in numbers. He claims "the left" bullies him on culture and on vaccines but mutters racist things under his breath in the checkout line and maintains a Facebook account just to harangue distant relatives. He's the first to call the police if he loses the upper hand and the first to scourge them if they enforce the law evenhandedly. He was there at the Capitol on January 6 but capable only of incitement. The various government subsidies he receives are qualitatively different, he believes, than those given to others. He is anti-tax but pro-tariff. He practically begs every grifter to pull the rug out from underneath him. He earnestly believes that creating fear in others removes it from him.

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:02:30 -0800

ok ok we get it you're the bestest and smartestest and you'll never ever be disappointed because that requires doing things. Now can we all have our conversation?

By: Countess Elena

Countess Elena — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:04:15 -0800

The idea that only a gigantic war can stop fascism is, in part, what led our nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan to fail. I mean, there are a LOT of other reasons, but that's a big one. I like this article a lot, but it falls down on "Billy." I know Billy type dudes. They're not great people, but they're not NPCs, either.

By: AzraelBrown

AzraelBrown — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:10:55 -0800

The article seems pretty keen on putting the blame on the bourgeoisie, people with some agency explicitly supporting the cause (aside from the one cultish-MAGA waiter); it doesn't really delve into the insidious part of the average person, who doesn't have skin in the game but they get their news from bad sources and watch a couple videos on YouTube until their algorithm only shows them one kind of strident voice, all those people receiving the message "you can't believe what [those people] are trying to do!!!!!! we gotta stop this!!!!!" without applying the critical thought that they barely have any energy for, just to take the statement at face value. There's a lot of mundane, indifferent people who only needed the slightest push to vote MAGA. They don't need that many true believers, they just need true believers to convince the indifferent.

By: Countess Elena

Countess Elena — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:11:24 -0800

star gentle uterus: I get that defeatism has some historical basis, but the fact is that we aren't those people and those times are not ours. Does that mean we're safe from the same forces? Of course it doesn't, that's why we're here. We're not better or smarter, but we're different. And different situations have the potential for different results. Can nonviolent struggle defeat a dictator? This database emphatically says yes

By: justkevin

justkevin — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:18:40 -0800

You write this and then go on to encourage actions that will also have no effect whatsoever on the current situation ... The only thing that stopped fascism was a gigantic war. I really don't understand this position. It seems to imply that nothing I do could hurt or help fascism. While I agree there's probably not just one thing I could do that would stop fascism forever, there are things I could do that move the needle one way or the other. At an absolute minimum, I could avoid deliberately trying to push the needle toward fascism. And then one step further, if I could encourage one other person to not help push the needle toward fascism. Or even try pushing it the other way.

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:21:22 -0800

it doesn't really delve into the insidious part of the average person, who doesn't have skin in the game but they get their news from bad sources This is what I was getting at above more or less. There's no doing anything about the MAGAs who have power and use their MAGA affiliation to grasp more. But mostly (numbers-wise) "who goes MAGA" is down to the same trait Thompson identified: Who lacks a true center, some compass that guides them independent of trends?

By: Selena777

Selena777 — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:23:12 -0800

Accept that you can't do anything. If that were true wouldn't the logical response be to flee?

By: betweenthebars

betweenthebars — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:24:49 -0800

This update would only be recognizable if my cohort consisted entirely of Professional Internet Caricatures. Not saying they're not out there, but just...yeah, shock of shocks, the worst people you can think of are bad? I think the article is too self-congratulatory and limited. US society is made up of more than a handful of people who were on Twitter in the 2010s.

By: Countess Elena

Countess Elena — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:39:21 -0800

between the bars: I'm thinking particularly of a woman in an article I can't find again. She was a Disney park worker with an incredibly precarious position, a South American immigrant struggling to care for a special needs child. She voted for Trump in 2020 because she thought he would prevent future park closures from COVID so she could be sure to keep working. How do you reach that kind of voter? Completely focused elsewhere, desperate for any lifeline?

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:45:44 -0800

How do you reach that kind of voter? Completely focused elsewhere, desperate for any lifeline? You have to give them the lifeline in a way that matters to them. You have to make the park worker believe that even if COVID has to close her theme park, she will be able to keep her home and pay her bills and feed her kids. And then, hard part: you have to actually do it. This is what FDR did, and what every Democratic president since then has been either incapable of* or disinclined to. *And in this I include those who were derailed by external factors, e.g., Carter, possibly Kennedy

By: Hypatia

Hypatia — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:47:35 -0800

Anti-fascist groups didn't stop fascism. Workers' groups and protest groups didn't stop fascism. I am fucking begging people to put down the books and articles about Nazi Germany and read one — just fucking one — book about Italian partisans, because Maybe you might find "a divided nation, with disparate groups (including former fascist sympathizers) coming together to resist" is maybe a better cognitive framework than "sorry we are all brainwashed into obedience to the dictator, can't do shit until some other country decides to invade". I would recommend the diaries of Iris Origo.

By: We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese

We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:53:08 -0800

Also to be clear, the Republicans are very very good at the making people believe even when they actively do not intend to deliver. Whereas many dems, at least in theory, do intend to deliver but couldn't convince a hungry dog to eat bacon. There's a gap there that I don't know how to bridge exactly.

By: corb

corb — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 09:05:35 -0800

I think also like, there's whatever the opposite of that plane with the bullet holes survivor thing is when it comes to history of Nazi Germany, because everyone always starts reading from 1933, and not the lead up to it. There's a lot of things that can be done, a lot of ways things can be influenced. I found the article very interesting and helpful in some ways, because it reminds us of ways we can talk to people who seem incomprehensible. Appealing to things one might not think of. For example: the Pope has come out really strong against mass deportation; and Trump has talked about wanting to shut down Catholic Charities. If you know any hard Catholics in your life who have been Trump supporters, you might be able to peel them off that way even if you think you *should* be able to peel them off on the constitutional crisis issue. A lot of science programs funding cancer treatment; you know Trump supporters whose family members were saved by cancer treatment? Work there. Work at the cracks, work your way in. If you are trying to peel them away and not doing something else. Everyone has priorities.

By: atoxyl

atoxyl — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 09:16:54 -0800

The article seems pretty keen on putting the blame on the bourgeoisie The original focuses on a similar milieu so I wouldn't hold that in particular against the tribute. And the "nice people don't go Nazi" message probably holds up better when analysis is constrained to people who really, really have a choice. This update would only be recognizable if my cohort consisted entirely of Professional Internet Caricatures Yeah, it's not that every character in Thompson's piece is incredibly nuanced but Lavin's suffers from not having the guts to make any surprising calls, for an inability to imagine an underprivileged character as anything but "tired of this bullshit." Thompson's conclusion that going Nazi ultimately transcends "race, color, creed or social condition" is one that a lot of people would hurry to attach disclaimers to these days, but understanding the cases in which it does has seldom been more relevant.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 10:06:18 -0800

This is a periodic reminder that, until elections are outlawed, voting is the #1 most effective thing you can do to defeat fascism. Hitler was voted in. So was Trump.

By: panglos

panglos — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 10:26:31 -0800

I depart with this article in one important respect: it describes performing this "Who will go MAGA?" exercise at parties as amusing. It's not amusing. Today, it's a survival skill.

By: FallibleHuman

FallibleHuman — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 10:28:55 -0800

Even if I accept the premise that our enemies are undefeatable, I can take action to reduce harm and care for people who are more exposed than I am, and I reject the premise that those actions are pointless. Some examples: If you know someone who's a federal worker, reach out to them. I had dinner with a friend who is one, and listened to him talk through their process for figuring out how to support their family, possibly by getting an apartment on the opposite coast until they can find a new job. I offered a few suggestions but mostly just listened. They said it helped. Had a conversation with a resident alien I know who is partway through the green card process and feeling pessimistic about their chances. I made clear that FallibleFamily will do whatever we can to support them, regardless of outcome. Cold comfort, but I also made clear that if this country forces them out, America is losing something valuable. (They said a few things that were a little self-blame-y and I wanted to counter that narrative.) I'm also thinking a lot about a city council meeting next week, where I plan to give my NIMBY-ass council rep hell for obstructing home construction. Forcing blue collar workers out into the suburbs/exurbs is how you turn a blue state purple. Like I told my fed employee friend, top priority is protecting our own mental health. For me, finding ways to take action helps. Even if I still lose, at least I tried.

By: loup

loup — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 10:42:24 -0800

[Two comments deleted. star gentle uterus, please stop discouraging and disparaging other people's efforts, you may disagree with them but there's no need to keep going at it. ]

By: dame

dame — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 11:35:12 -0800

So the fact that the only brown lady in the whole thing is a MAGA bitch in an interracial marriage where her husband has contempt for her is deeply fucking problematic says this brown lady in an interracial marriage.

By: JustSayNoDawg

JustSayNoDawg — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 11:36:58 -0800

I have a friend of mine, whom I love to death, and who is very gay, voted for Donald Trump. Every time I want to say "who's the bitch now" to a MAGA voter, I I keep thinking of that guy and all I can say is "goddamnit ... ". He meant well, but we all know what road is covered with that.

By: kitcat

kitcat — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:05:34 -0800

This is a periodic reminder that, until elections are outlawed, voting is the #1 most effective thing you can do to defeat fascism. Hitler was voted in. So was Trump. In this age of propaganda and misinformation, foreign election interference and false victimhood - I'm afraid that not the case anywhere in the world.

By: stevil

stevil — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:24:44 -0800

their shock-and-awe campaign Here's an important and easy one - don't default to their framing and rhetoric. They chose that language to accomplish a goal, to project strength (e.g., the mandate they claim falsely they were given), and instill fear. They don't need us doing that work for them.

By: mersen

mersen — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:31:43 -0800

Another point in favor of actions that have no immediate effect on the current situation. Art doesn't need to stop fascism or be useful. It's valuable to make, as part of being human. (If it's the sort of art that pisses off fascists, bonus.) Art can also be an anchor for building or finding community and identity. Maybe that leads to more direct acts against oppression, or to helping people impacted by it. Or to preserving art that fascists would prefer not exist. I don't know, I don't see myself stopping fascism . But I can enjoy art and talk about it, and maybe read up on Italian partisans, and go from there. Re the article, I recognized the style more than anything, possibly because I don't know the people who go to cocktail parties with waiters these days? But I think the point of the original is still valid and useful to think about.

By: kitcat

kitcat — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:55:08 -0800

Maybe you might find "a divided nation, with disparate groups (including former fascist sympathizers) coming together to resist" is maybe a better cognitive framework than "sorry we are all brainwashed into obedience to the dictator, can't do shit until some other country decides to invade". Yes. If this is the 'what can we do' thread then I want to drop a link here to the predecessor-to-the-CIA's 1944 Simple Sabotage Field Manual. It's on the CIA's website but I don't want to direct traffic from here to a government site. I wish I could make a front page post for it but I've never done that before and I'm going to mess it up. If anyone wants to they are welcome.

By: atoxyl

atoxyl — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:55:08 -0800

So the fact that the only brown lady in the whole thing is a MAGA bitch in an interracial marriage where her husband has contempt for her is deeply fucking problematic I have a friend of mine, whom I love to death, and who is very gay, voted for Donald Trump There's a weird duality of problematic/trying too hard not to be here - analyzing the psychology of a queer MAGA follower is absolutely relevant in a world that contains your buddy and Peter Thiel and trans 4chan anime Nazis but the closeted character depicted here feels like a thinly, awkwardly sketched, cliché.

By: atoxyl

atoxyl — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:56:38 -0800

To be fair what Lavin is trying to pull off here is obviously, fundamentally very difficult. And being further removed from Thompson's era makes it easier to buy into her sketches as accurate, not to notice little details that feel off.

By: seanmpuckett

seanmpuckett — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 13:47:08 -0800

The very end of the simple sabotage field manual is where the really good stuff is, stuff that anyone can do:

(12) General Devices for Lowering Morale and Creating Confusion (a) Give lengthy and incomprehensible explanations when questioned. (b) Report imaginary spies or danger to the Gestapo or police. (c) Act stupid. (d) Be as irritable and quarrelsome as possible without getting yourself into trouble. (e) Misunderstand all sorts of regulations concerning such matters as rationing, transportation, traffic regulations. (f) Complain against ersatz materials. (g) In public treat axis nationals or quislings coldly. (h) Stop all conversation when axis nationals or quislings enter a cafe. (i) Cry and sob hysterically at every occasion, especially when confronted by government clerks. (j) Boycott all movies, entertainments, concerts, newspapers which are in any way connected with the quisling authorities.

By: idb

idb — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 14:55:05 -0800

I've just finished reading Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Message, the thrust of which is that writing and reading change the world and make space for change. It's very quotable, but here's one: "The systems we oppose are systems of oppression, and thus inherently systems of cowardice. They work best in the dark, their essence tucked away and as unexamined as the great American pastime was once to me. But then a writer told me a story and I saw something essential and terrible about the world." (just before the end of Part I - emphasis added) For my own part, everything helps, and no gesture is too small.

By: dame

dame — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 15:09:01 -0800

I ... don't actually think what she is trying to do here is that hard; what it should be, to be good, is subtle and she is not. Even beyond the, and I cannot emphasize this enough, seriously egregious racism around interracial relationships, Lavin is missing the point of the original and going just for caricatures. To choose another example, I am sure there are plenty of transphobes who are not transphobes because they are secretly trans. I like Lavin's other work, so this is not just me being like, oh I hate her! It is just a miss. Somewhat tangentially related, I cannot recommond reading the Authoritarian Personality enough if you want to think through what makes people susceptible to fascism. It looks long, but a lot is survey replication, etc., and it suits being read out of order. (It is based on quantitative and qualitative research run during and after World Wwar 2 by a group of psychologists and sociologists, including Adorno.)

By: atoxyl

atoxyl — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 16:03:09 -0800

I ... don't actually think what she is trying to do here is that hard I just meant it's hard to live up to a very famous piece of writing! But agreed about the ways in which it falls short.

By: SoberHighland

SoberHighland — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 16:05:39 -0800

So many male Hispanics voting for this shit in 2024 was a serious gut punch to me. I work at a nonprofit social services agency that primarily serves Latinos. Were are like 85% government funded. 95% of the people who work at my agency are women and Hispanic. Most of the people we serve are low income Hispanic families. I have no doubt that many of them are undocumented, or at least have family members who are undocumented. We just had a disgruntled ex-employee post on Facebook that ICE was at the agency the other day waiting for parents picking up the kids in the after school program. Our first prank. I had to put a reality check on the front page of our website. We were flooded with calls. We are not staffed to answer mass panic phone calls. Who knows, maybe one day ICE will really show up? If Democrats can't even appeal to lower income Hispanics, we are in serious trouble. I think the MAGA message sends a weird "true American" vibe that appeals to young males. Most people don't know anything about politics, let alone actual policy positions.

By: St. Peepsburg

St. Peepsburg — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 19:40:37 -0800

MrC in the first article is Vance; I gasped out loud. Thanks for posting. This is... fuck people never change do we.

By: Naberius

Naberius — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 22:28:16 -0800

I'm not sure it was necessary to "update" Who Goes Nazi? It's always seemed perfectly clear and relevant to our situation as it stands. But now, I guess we have a version where the players have cell phones and blogs and so on if you can't relate to a world where men wear hats and design airplanes. This feels sort of like colorizing Casablanca.

By: flabdablet

flabdablet — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 22:45:20 -0800

You know what ultimately stops fascism? Fascism does. Simply because it doesn't fucking work. It's all smoke and shiny patent leather mirrors, and after about twenty years even the rubes get wise to it. So it seems to me that the main thing anti-fascists need to concentrate on right now is mutual aid and survival. Sand in the gears and piss in the petrol tank are of course wonderful morale boosters and to be encouraged wherever possible, but they mustn't come at the cost of mutual aid and survival. Sometimes, just keeping your head down and doing what you can for somebody in a worse position than you is not only the best that can be done, it's the best that should be done. Good luck, everyone. We're all counting on you.

By: Didnt_do_enough

Didnt_do_enough — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 05:26:11 -0800

I personally enjoyed the article. From observing people near me, I think being a Trump believer is appealing to some people because for some of us, the world looks like its coming apart. Beliefs that have reflected the reality for the past few decades are rapidly becoming untrue. Some people want to bury their heads in the sand. I'm scared too, but I'd rather face what's coming head on although I know its not good.

By: AzraelBrown

AzraelBrown — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 06:06:21 -0800

I think the MAGA message sends a weird "true American" vibe that appeals to young [hispanic] males. MAGA white male: "I'm a patriot who believes in freedom and fighting against those who'll take it away from you!" Disenchanted Latinx: "I'm a patriot who believes in freedom, I'm just like you!" maga WHITE male: *chuckles* "Oh, no, you're not like ME."

By: jenfullmoon

jenfullmoon — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:35:54 -0800

If that were true wouldn't the logical response be to flee? WHERE?!? The conservatives/MAGA/fascist tide seems to be everywhere and most countries don't want to take you and you need a lot of money.

By: corb

corb — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 09:00:12 -0800

WHERE?!? The conservatives/MAGA/fascist tide seems to be everywhere and most countries don't want to take you and you need a lot of money. I mean trust me, I'm looking. My current sense is that you want places where the surveillance state apparatus never had the technology to take hold. Going to be really hard to track you where nobody has fucking wifi-connected cameras. Those places also tend to need a lot less money. I'm seeing places for about 400$ US a month in various locations. Yeah, that will involve the loss of a lot of things I've gotten really used to, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. But I have kids that are in Department of Education records as trans and disabled. So I think it's really important to get them out now and worry about that shit later.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 11:59:14 -0800

You know what ultimately stops fascism? Fascism does. Simply because it doesn't fucking work. It's all smoke and shiny patent leather mirrors, and after about twenty years even the rubes get wise to it. So it seems to me that the main thing anti-fascists need to concentrate on right now is mutual aid and survival. Uh, I'm sorry, but twenty years is about twenty years too long.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 12:02:45 -0800

And, you know, look, I get that it is very depressing and overwhelming and I really can't blame anyone for wanting to just hole up with their loved ones and wait it out or who thinks there really is nothing we can do about what is coming. Shit is bad! Really bad. But we got here through actions we all did (or didn't) take, and we can get out of it. It won't be easy and it might take longer than we hope and there will be many, many moments when it feels helpless, but the one thing we can't afford to do is give up and just hope things will fall apart naturally.

By: adrienneleigh

adrienneleigh — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 20:17:46 -0800

The closeted trans woman portrayed in Lavin's piece is deeply grotesque and buys into the general "white trans women are Nazis" sentiment that is all the fuck over social media. Lavin is being criticized heavily for this by a whole lot of trans people and is completely ignoring it when she's not doubling down.

By: flabdablet

flabdablet — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 22:09:23 -0800

twenty years is about twenty years too long. Yes it is. Which doesn't alter the fact that history shows that that's about how long it actually takes. The hot-headed young men whom fascist leadership always relies upon to keep the shock and awe moving are just that slow to mature. By the time they have, they find themselves in charge of the movement's middle-management layer, with the skills to preserve their own positions there, and the simple fact that fascism doesn't fucking work has become obvious to most of them. Fascism feeds on public discontent, and blaming the immigrants for all of society's ills while keeping immigrants as numerous and visible as possible has proved to be a very reliable way of stoking that discontent. But nobody likes being taken for a sucker, and fascist supporters in aggregate are not as stupid as fascism's leaders. Once they've actually got their hands on the levers of power, twenty years of dedication to a principle that visibly and manifestly isn't actually fixing anything is enough to burn most of the supporters out. Not by any means all, but enough. No political movement can thrive once a biggish proportion of the people who actually do the work of keeping it running have either given up on it or become pissed off enough to start white-anting it from the inside.

By: i used to be someone else

i used to be someone else — Thu, 30 Jan 2025 22:20:15 -0800

it's not just the "trans women have a nazi phase" thing, but the fact that trans women are explicitly being targeted by this administration in a way that few other communities are; even the small details, like using "he/him" for this trope ends up rubbing a lot of trans women the wrong way. i'm trying to be more generous in my read, given how ms. x's partner is implied to also be trans, but the "closeted queer who exudes hate for what they can't have" is a trope that should probably go the way of "lesbians can never have happy endings/kill your gays"

By: CrystalDave

CrystalDave — Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:29:44 -0800

Lavin is being criticized heavily for this by a whole lot of trans people and is completely ignoring it when she's not doubling down. I believe the piece has since been pulled by Lavin, with this note: "I was silent about it because I was literally asleep. It was fucked up of me to include "Mr. B" in the first place. So: I hear you, and the piece is gone."

By: i used to be someone else

i used to be someone else — Fri, 31 Jan 2025 14:49:16 -0800

damn, that's a pretty impressive apology and understanding of the critique i don't think i've ever seen that publicly from someone who did something harmful to trans women before

By: neuron

neuron — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 10:26:35 -0800

The link is ded,

By: knock my sock and i'll clean your clock

knock my sock and i'll clean your clock — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 19:41:24 -0800

Hitler was voted in. uh no he was famously appointed, not elected, chancellor of germany. he led the nazi party, which won electoral victories, and he therefore became chancellor because of that despite the president's initial objections, but he lost the presidential election in 1932.