Comments on: Use it or lose it - run for knee health http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health/ Comments on MetaFilter post Use it or lose it - run for knee health Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:04:51 -0800 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:04:51 -0800 en-us http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 60 Use it or lose it - run for knee health http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health <a href="http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/phys-ed-can-running-actually-help-your-knees/?em">Running is actually good for your knees,</a> if you haven't suffered knee injuries in the past. <em>[D]espite entrenched mythology to the contrary, runners don't seem prone to degenerating knees. An important 2008 study, this one from Stanford University, followed middle-aged, longtime distance runners (not necessarily marathoners) for nearly 20 years, beginning in 1984, when most were in their 50s or 60s. At that time, 6.7 percent of the runners had creaky, mildly arthritic knees, while none of an age-matched control group did. After 20 years, however, the runners' knees were healthier; only 20 percent showed arthritic changes, versus 32 percent of the control group's knees. Barely 2 percent of the runners' knees were severely arthritic, while almost 10 percent of the control group's were. </em> post:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:03:21 -0800 caddis OA osteoarthritis knee running health exercise By: smackfu http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699832 Me knees hurt after I run. They do not hurt the rest of the time. In your face, research data! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699832 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:04:51 -0800 smackfu By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699839 I hate running. I love using an elliptical machine. Changed my life! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699839 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:08:12 -0800 East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 By: DU http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699840 The control group consisted of 50 to 60 year olds and NONE of them had bad knees? And these runners are now 70-80 years old? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699840 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:08:21 -0800 DU By: somanyamys http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699842 Woo-hoo! I choose to blindly believe this single study because it's what I want to hear! Whee! <small> Hey, you. Get offa my cloud.</small> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699842 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:10:00 -0800 somanyamys By: Alexandra Kitty http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699844 Runners ruin their health -- their knees, breathing in pollution, running in sweltering heat. Most of the people I know who had their knees replaced were joggers. Walking is still the best exercise in the world -- especially when you have someone by your side... comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699844 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:11:23 -0800 Alexandra Kitty By: Comrade_robot http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699846 <em>The control group consisted of 50 to 60 year olds and NONE of them had bad knees? And these runners are now 70-80 years old? posted by DU at 11:08 AM on August 18 [+] [!] </em> That's not exactly what the <a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2556152">article</a> says: Most subjects showed little initial radiographic OA (6.7% of runners and 0 controls); however, by the end of the study runners did not have more prevalent OA (20 vs 32%, p =0.25) nor more cases of severe OA (2.2% vs 9.4%, p=0.21) than did controls. Regression models found higher initial BMI, initial radiographic damage, and greater time from initial radiograph to be associated with worse radiographic OA at the final assessment; no significant associations were seen with gender, education, previous knee injury, or mean exercise time. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699846 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:11:46 -0800 Comrade_robot By: blucevalo http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699850 Could you elaborate, East Manitoba? I've been looking for a cardio exercise that I can stick to and haven't been successful. Sorry if this is going into AskMeFi territory. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699850 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:13:34 -0800 blucevalo By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699853 An epileptical machine, eh? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699853 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:17:22 -0800 Mister_A By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699854 And my knees hurt when I <em>don't</em> get exercise. Seriously, it's weird. blucevalo, get a bike or join the Y and swim. Although the bike is probably a better bet at this point, it takes a while to build up the strength to swim aerobically for 20-30 min. Or you could do a brisk walk! Bring some brandy with you to pass the time. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699854 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:19:20 -0800 Mister_A By: jock@law http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699856 <small><small><small>Trying not to derail, elliptical machines are fantastic. It's like slogging up-hill at a straight incline for an hour with perfectly designed no-impact shoes. An hour in "fat-burn" (or "weight loss") mode can easily burn 600 calories. Most elliptical machines have a reading stand in front, so you can multitask fairly easily (some of my big-law-firm-type friends are billing hours while working out!). So break out your ipod and this week's Economist and give it a go.</small></small></small> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699856 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:19:54 -0800 jock@law By: glaucon http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699857 What about the runners' shins, hips and ankles? What about runners' backs? I'd imagine there's some wear and tear going on....there. Sorry for the rhyme. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699857 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:20:12 -0800 glaucon By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699860 My thing about elliptical machines is that Rocky wouldn't use 'em. ROCKY TRAINING IS THE GREATEST TRAINING, YO! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699860 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:22:26 -0800 Mister_A By: Burhanistan http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699861 <em><s>Walking</s> SEX is still the best exercise in the world -- especially when you have someone by your side...</em> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699861 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:22:35 -0800 Burhanistan By: creasy boy http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699862 I fucked my left knee up by running for years with my toes pointed outwards. I 'd sprained my left ankle repeatedly until it got less flexible, and I was running and walking with my left foot pointed outwards, for years, without noticing it. My cousin had the exact same problem and also ended up with fucked knees. If you run a lot, it's worth making sure that your feet are aligned properly. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699862 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:23:01 -0800 creasy boy By: DU http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699863 <i>Most of the people I know who had their knees replaced were joggers.</i> Sincere or hilarious parody of anecdotal, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent">logically fallacious</a> reasoning? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699863 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:23:30 -0800 DU By: Burhanistan http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699866 When you point out logical fallacies, do you utmost to not be a turd about it, eh? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699866 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:25:54 -0800 Burhanistan By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699868 Comrade_robot points out some important things - the differences between the groups were not statistically significant. We can't make assertions about one group having better outcomes than the other based on these data. There appears to be a trend in favor of the runners in terms of OA symptoms, but this can only be confirmed with a larger study. It's an interesting hypothesis-generating study, though. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699868 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:27:03 -0800 Mister_A By: Burhanistan http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699869 "do your..." And when you chide people, do yo utmost to type n stuff. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699869 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:27:14 -0800 Burhanistan By: padraigin http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699874 I just started running last week, for the first time since junior high school. Couch To 5K. I don't care about my knees. I care about my ass. Will running break my ass? Because it frankly could use some breaking. It's outta control. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699874 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:29:09 -0800 padraigin By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699875 I wonder if we will see this paper misrepresented on the <em>Today</em> show tomorrow morning. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699875 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:29:10 -0800 Mister_A By: George_Spiggott http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699877 I don't suppose a study of this caliber could make a simple selection error, to wit: the reason longtime runners aren't prone to bad knees is because people prone to bad knees don't become longtime runners? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699877 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:29:42 -0800 George_Spiggott By: Thorzdad http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699880 <em>I hate running. I love using an elliptical machine. Changed my life!</em> That's funny. Elliptical machines hurt my knees. I have no problems running. Go figure. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699880 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:31:28 -0800 Thorzdad By: DU http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699881 I'm sincerely not sure if it's a parody or not. Considering that that comment starts off by affirming without comment what this post is denying, it seems like it must be a parody. But then it ends apparently sincerely. So I don't get it. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699881 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:31:45 -0800 DU By: somanyamys http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699882 I have tried elliptical machines so. many. times, and I just can't get the motion. I must be defective. But my joints (knees, hips <em>and </em>back) ache when I <em>don't</em> exercise enough (and that includes running). I have no choice but to be active anymore. It's awesome. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699882 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:31:47 -0800 somanyamys By: creasy boy http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699885 <em>Most of the people I know who had their knees replaced were joggers. Sincere or hilarious parody of anecdotal, logically fallacious reasoning?</em> How exactly is that an example of affirming the consequent? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699885 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:32:57 -0800 creasy boy By: shmegegge http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699891 man, I need to know what the hell DOES lead to bad knees, because i'm 29 and my left knee is a horror show. I can't sit in a cramped car seat for more than a half an hour without suffering terrible pain. same at my desk. I need to routinely stretch the fucker out. I suspect it's because I had the terrible habit of sitting on my left foot for years before this pain started. but then, I'm no doctor. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699891 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:35:26 -0800 shmegegge By: crataegus http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699892 I recently took up running (OK, since I'm a lard ass, mostly walking and panting heavily after running a short distance, lather, rinse, repeat) because I'm diabetic, need to lose weight, and need exercise in general. I am very happy to read this because my mother had her second knee replaced recently. She assured me it's because of an accident from the 1980s, but I'm paranoid. This allays some of my fears. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699892 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:36:09 -0800 crataegus By: peep http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699893 I love it when people who don't run tell me that my body should be falling apart. Tell it to my 16% body fat and fucking awesome body density, suckers! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699893 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:37:35 -0800 peep By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699894 George, the study was looking for signs of degeneration of the joint over a 10-year period, and found no increase in the runner group. The interesting thing was that the runners showed more signs of OA at baseline. Now, it could still be possible that some other factor is at work here, but the fact that the runners' knees were no better (and showed a trend toward being worse) than the non-runners' at baseline suggests that the runners aren't self-selecting based on knee health. Of course, a larger study is needed to confirm and expand on these results. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699894 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:38:43 -0800 Mister_A By: elsietheeel http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699915 Ellipticals make my toes fall asleep. And barefoot running still makes my calves hurt. But I do both of them anyway - no pain, no gain? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699915 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:49:08 -0800 elsietheeel By: docpops http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699918 This is certainly in keeping with my clinical views. Runners as a whole simply need very little in the way of medical intervention and from an orthopedic standpoint, someone with 20 extra pound (or 100 as is more common) is going to suffer far more from arthritis or other musculoskeletal issues. Arthritis is a lot less common than deconditioning injuries like tendonitis as well. So exercise. If running is your thing, stop worrying about your knees. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699918 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:49:56 -0800 docpops By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699921 For people have trouble with an elliptical trainer: Have you tried pronating more? It helps me a lot. Since I started doing that I haven't had knee trouble. <small>My aim is to burn fat. I burn an alleged 600-700kcal in 45 minutes 6 days a week, after work. I just use manual mode, usually with medium settings. I prefer the machines with the hand levers. I ignore the heartrate monitors which never seem to work. Apparently the calorie count includes the energy you would be using just by lying down (which for me would be around 70kcal), and some sources say it is exaggerating further, although the manufacturer denies this. But anyway, it is still a shitload of calories and I am burning fat successfully. I need to take frequent breaks when running otherwise I just feel destroyed. With the elliptical I can just keep going and actually enjoy whatever it is I am watching or listening to.</small> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699921 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:51:38 -0800 East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 By: bitteroldman http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699922 I totally killed my knees and my hamstrings when I first started jogging - then I got orthotics and a good-quality pair of running shoes (from a running store that let me "test drive" the shoes for two weeks), and I've never turned back. <sub> <derail> Always buy your shoes from a running specialty store that looks at your gait when you walk, lets you test drive the shoes and offers a reasonable return policy - the Running Room where I purchased my shoes let me take them home, run with them (indoors on a treadmill) for 2 weeks and allowed me to replace them for another pair </derail> </sub> I also warm up a bit with some squats (knees always behind the toes) before a run, which seems to help loads. Swimming is probably the best exercise for your joints, since there is minimal impact, but running is so convenient and can be done anywhere and is a helluva lot cheaper than any kind of machine. But ultimately you gotta do what is <i>best and most enjoyable </i> for you, whether it be walking, running, swimming, biking, elliptical machines, stairmasters, rowing machines, hiking, basketball, soccer, hockey, football, lacrosse, yoga, aerobics, whatever. You can get injured doing anything, really. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699922 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:52:14 -0800 bitteroldman By: yeti http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699926 The trick to healthy knees is to say "Hi" to them from time to time. Go ahead, try it. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699926 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:53:29 -0800 yeti By: enamon http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699928 I fuck up my knees everytime I run. Of course, I don't run properly. I always land on my heels instead of the balls of my feet. Whenever I try to run on the balls of my feet I end up doing it too fast and have to slow down as soon as I get in stride lest I hit someone or something by accident. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699928 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:54:53 -0800 enamon By: batou_ http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699940 shmegegge, that sounds like patella femoral syndrome comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699940 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:59:01 -0800 batou_ By: octothorpe http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699951 I've been running for years and except when I fall on one, I've no problems with my knees. My ankles though, ouch. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699951 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:02:33 -0800 octothorpe By: deanc http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699957 Elliptical machines nicely and evenly exercise your muscles and provide a low-impact cardio workout. however, when it comes to burning as many calories as possible as quickly as possible, nothing beats the treadmill or the stairmaster. The elliptical is for when I'm injured. The thing about regular marathon runners is that they are much more likely to replace their running shoes often and make sure to wear good, comfortable walking shoes when they're not running. In short, because the demands of running force you to pay attention to your joint health, you're going to end up healthier than the regular people with 5-year-old sneakers and clunky shoes from Payless. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699957 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:04:55 -0800 deanc By: George_Spiggott http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699974 The fact remains that long-term runners are a self-selecting group. So you have a lot to account for before generalizing too broadly from these results. For example, the children of athletic parents are far more likely to be athletic themselves. Would a child whose parent developed a degenerative knee problem be more or less likely to become a longtime runner? Predisposition can manifest in a lot of ways, not just early signs -- which themselves could include discomfort not obviously indicating a predisposition but nevertheless dissuasive in early years -- but also in family medical history and upbringing. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699974 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:11:49 -0800 George_Spiggott By: misskaz http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699975 <i>But ultimately you gotta do what is best and most enjoyable for you, whether it be walking, running, swimming, biking, elliptical machines, stairmasters, rowing machines, hiking, basketball, soccer, hockey, football, lacrosse, yoga, aerobics, whatever.</i> Agreed. I tried running. A few years ago I got to the point where I could (slowly) run 3-4 miles at a time. But every. second. sucked. I never enjoyed it. I barely even enjoyed the accomplishment of meeting milestones. I felt slow, plodding, and heavy (although I'm not overweight). This may just be excuse-making, but I've decided that at a curvy 5'1" with proportionally short legs, my body type is just not ideal for running. Then this year I got a bike, and I have never enjoyed exercising more than I have in taking up cycling. There's a childish FUN that I don't find with anything else. And I can exercise with my (5'10" beanpole) husband, which I could never do running. Until a personal crisis upended our training plans, we were going to ride a century (100m ride) this year, and we may still try. In July I logged 550 miles. I can go fast, and have steadily improved my speed to the point where I can average 15mph on my commute if there's not a heavy headwind. Next year I hope to upgrade my hybrid commuter to a speedy road bike. I am jealous of the people that make running a lifetime habit, sometimes, but not when I fly past them on my bike. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699975 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:12:07 -0800 misskaz By: padraigin http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699984 <em>The thing about regular marathon runners is that they are much more likely to replace their running shoes often and make sure to wear good, comfortable walking shoes when they're not running. In short, because the demands of running force you to pay attention to your joint health, you're going to end up healthier than the regular people with 5-year-old sneakers and clunky shoes from Payless.</em> I bet there's a lot of truth to that. The couple of serious distance runners I know have multiple pairs of shoes, in fact--when I go to their houses, there's a pile of running shoes by the door. I guess they kind of overlap them so when it's time to retire one pair, there's another pair already broken in and a new pair ready to go. They're not out running in the same shoes they wear to go to the store or mow the lawn. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699984 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:15:33 -0800 padraigin By: kirkaracha http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699988 Running on its own is boring. I can only run away from something or after something. So, soccer. Throwing in an extra flight of stairs helps my knees. For instance, instead of walking up one flight of stairs to the cafeteria, I walk up two, then down one flight. It takes maybe a minute and adds two flights of stairs, one up and one down. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699988 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:16:24 -0800 kirkaracha By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699989 I run a lot and I usually have two pair of shoes - my "good" shoes and my old shoes that I use when I think they might get wet. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699989 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:16:44 -0800 Mister_A By: rahnefan http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699991 chicken &harr; egg comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699991 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:18:55 -0800 rahnefan By: Plutor http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699996 This is good news for the <a href="http://www.runnerplus.com/groups/metafilter/">MetaFilter running group</a>! Join today, and cry yourself to sleep at night when thawed beats your sixteen-mile month with a hardly-believable 700mi! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2699996 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:20:12 -0800 Plutor By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700004 700/30 = 23.333 mi/d. Now that will hurt your knees and everything else. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700004 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:22:49 -0800 Mister_A By: yeti http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700014 I don't trust running stores to sell me running shoes and tell me I have to buy more and more and more after X miles. I only wear my running shoes running. Going to the store? That's what Croc's are for, amirite? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700014 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:26:07 -0800 yeti By: somanyamys http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700025 <a href="http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2699922">bitteroldman</a>: <em><strong>Always buy your shoes from a running specialty store</strong> that looks at your gait when you walk, lets you test drive the shoes and offers a reasonable return policy...</em> This needs to be shouted from the rooftops, not whispered in small tags. :) I think I created a runnerplus account ages ago, but never really got around to updating it. I should see about that. Not that my measly mileage would ever impress anyone. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700025 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:29:04 -0800 somanyamys By: ignignokt http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700041 <i>An important 2008 study, this one from Stanford University, followed middle-aged, longtime distance runners (not necessarily marathoners) for nearly 20 years, beginning in 1984, when most were in their 50s or 60s.</i> The problem here is that they've already weeded people out that quit running because it damaged their knees. The conclusion of this study should be something like "Runners that make it their 50s or 60s without damaging their knees are not prone to degenerating knees for the remaining part of their running careers." comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700041 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:35:43 -0800 ignignokt By: Mitheral http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700043 <em>"George, the study was looking for signs of degeneration of the joint over a 10-year period, and found no increase in the runner group. The interesting thing was that the runners showed more signs of OA at baseline. "</em></a> Mister_A they chose people who were running in their 50s. The people who ran for 10 years in their 30s and then blew out a knee or developed OA at that time may have stopped. IE: people who were at risk of developing running induced OA may have already stopped running by the time they are 50-60 years old because of OA. I'm not saying this is the case. Just that as presented there looks like a good possibility of self selection in the study. The study authors recognize the possibility of self selection inherent in their study: "<blockquote><em>It must be recognized that this study is subject to possible selection bias as the runners were all healthy individuals who continued running at least into the 6th decade of life, most of whom had been running for nearly a decade prior to study entry.</em></blockquote>" comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700043 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:36:43 -0800 Mitheral By: ignignokt http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700045 Also, what <b>George_Spiggott</b> said. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700045 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:37:16 -0800 ignignokt By: Zambrano http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700057 <a href="http://www.cure-back-pain.org/psychologically-induced-pain-syndromes.html">Psychologically-induced pain syndromes and emotional repression.</a> <a href="http://www.etex.net/kelving/Harvard-Radcliffe_RSI_Action_Group.pdf">Repetitive strain injuries, TMS and unacceptable emotions.</a> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700057 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:41:35 -0800 Zambrano By: Camofrog http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700069 <a href="http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2009/04/19/what_ruins_running/">Maybe we should run in sandals.</a> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700069 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:49:02 -0800 Camofrog By: digsrus http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700077 It seems to me that marathon runners are by definition physically suited for running. They are the runners who seem to be effortlessly gliding down the road. Perhaps their efficient style is the reason they suffer fewer injuries while running. Perhaps if a person does not have the correct physiology for running they are not candidates for that particular exercise. By the way, I had 1/3 of my cartilage removed three months ago. If I knew then what my knee would feel like now, I would have had explored other options before so readily agreeing to surgery. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700077 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:50:16 -0800 digsrus By: Theta States http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700083 Running was the reason I always loathed exercise. Discovering exercise that didn't involve running (and the horrible pounding on my knees that resulted) was the reason I began to enjoy exercise again. As such, I am innately opposed to any research that does not villify running. Next! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700083 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:53:04 -0800 Theta States By: blue_beetle http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700087 Metafilter: If it DOESN'T hurt, you're doing it WRONG. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700087 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:56:33 -0800 blue_beetle By: jimmythefish http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700098 As a 34-year-old former national-class distance runner now running marathons seriously (training 90+ miles a week) I've had the opportunity to make some observations about running in the 17 years I've been doing it. I'm not so sure about the good shoes and orthotics argument making a difference across the board. I'm of the mind that a lot of people aren't really built to run in their current physical condition, but I'd also argue that lifestyle and 20+ years of not running is largely the cause, rather than any specific body type. Knees, in particular, are about the muscles surrounding them rather than the joint itself. If your quads are weak, your knees track incorrectly. This isn't a knee problem, but rather a conditioning problem. I tend to get injured when I've had a layoff or transitioning from another activity. Over the years I've fixed a lot of joint injuries by simply running through them and having the faith that the pain I'm feeling is largely related to a weakness that will be fixed by the strength gained through the running. Obviously you can't run through everything, but you can certainly fix imbalances by doing it. Knee pain, I believe, is one of these things. Humans are really well adapted to running - show me a child under 10 that's a really horrible runner. I'll bet you can't find many. We get conditioned to running poorly by not running as we get older. I agree that orthotics can make a difference for someone not used to running or with someone with a specific biomechanical condition, but I believe orthotics are way over-diagnosed and are a crutch that get depended on and eventually get conditioned to, such that the individual needs them - their gait has adapted to that (unnatural) stimulus. I'm just not convinced that most of the running injuries we see amongst recreational and competitive runners alike aren't lifesyle related. I'm one of the lucky ones that can run 100 mile weeks in paper-thin racing flats and not suffer a hint of damage - but then again, my 15-year old self wouldn't have been able to do it. I'd say there's a mix of genetics and conditioning, but I'd also say that conditioning has a far greater effect than genetics. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700098 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:01:48 -0800 jimmythefish By: liet http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700118 I used to have terrible knees. I was one of those people who didn't go to the movies because I couldn't stretch my legs out; plane trips were sheer torture. I went to doctors and had MRIs. An orthopedic surgeon told me to my face that I "just had bad knees." No diagnosis, just live with it. I started running and promptly got a stress fracture. I sat on my ass for another two years. Then I started running again, this time in proper shoes and on a proper schedule (yes, it's that important to stick to three days per week in C25k). A year and a half later, I've lost 65 pounds from my peak weight. I've run many 5ks, a few 10ks, a half-marathon, and a full marathon. I'm training for my second and third marathons and I hope to run at least two more halves this winter. And my knees don't hurt a bit. <b>I am totally cured.</b> <small>Is it because I lost a dramatic amount of weight or because I'm getting so much exercise? I don't really care. I love running and I plan to keep it up for the rest of my life. I can enjoy seeing a movie in a regular theater, I can travel without pain, and hell, I enjoy being able to wear fun clothes again too. My quality of life is immeasurably better.</small> comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700118 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:07:42 -0800 liet By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700130 Oh, I acknowledge that such may be the case, but the study is still interesting in that it showed no difference in OA symptoms between the two matched groups over the 10 year duration. If running contributes to OA, as has been suggested in the past, then one <em>might</em> expect to see OA changes over the course of the 10-year study at a somewhat increased rate compared with the matched controls. The reason that an older age cohort was selected, I assume, is that these people will start to show signs of OA at this age regardless of physical activity, allowing better detection of differences in the rate of OA symptoms between groups. Not perfect, but not bad. As I said, this is a hypothesis-generating study. The possible explanations I can see for the observations are: 1. The runner group has super-knees that are resistant to OA, or better form, or better shoes, or some protective factor. 2. Running is no worse for your knees than not running. 3. BMI has a greater effect on OA than running. 4. Sampling error prevents us from knowing anything about running and OA based on these data. I think #2 and #3 are the most interesting to test next. #4 takes care of itself with a larger sample. Pathology reports can help us address #1, perhaps... #3 is interesting, though. Neither group had exceptional BMI-the runner group was statistically significantly lower than the non- but, neither were out of the normal range. Could this 1-point difference in BMI mask the deleterious effects of running on the knee? <a href="http://ard.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/66/2/158?grp=1">Maybe</a>. The next study here will be tricky. A larger sample would hopefully match the BMI a little more closely between groups, so we can focus on #2–but how best to account for the possibility of self-selection of the running group via resistance to OA? I mean, we don't have any proposed mechanism to account for #1 but that doesn't mean we can discount it. The problem is that we're looking for chronic changes, things that take years to show up. You can't really take non-runners and randomize them and then expect them to run or not run, based on the randomization, for a decade or two, then compare... There may be surrogate markers of inflammation that are detectable non-invasively though. This is a tricky problem! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700130 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:11:08 -0800 Mister_A By: The Power Nap http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700168 I'm going to have to second JimmyTheFish here. When I started running I was a pudgy desk jockey who got tired of getting winded on a single flight of stairs. I started running in some Vans I had laying around and other than straining muscles within my foot, I was doing okay. Only when everybody and their mom started yelling at me to get some running shoes, and I listened, did I start developing knee issues. Hell, I think it was an article on Metafilter that highlighted some long distance running mexican tribe and their habits (or lack there of) did I think to ignore everybody's advice. Only then did my knee problems go away. I run in indoor soccer shoes, and from the first day I started doing it I have had little to no knee issues. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700168 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:25:04 -0800 The Power Nap By: VicNebulous http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700174 I run regularly, although only 16-24 miles per week. At age 48, I've had one knee injury that was attributed to running, although I can't pinpoint exactly what did it. What I've learned in speaking with other runners and with orthopedic surgeons, is that the two big problems are "postage stamping" of meniscus (constant pounding of joint punching little perforations in the meniscus until there's a tear) and good old arthritis. One friend had his meniscus repaired, and as he was about to be put under the anesthesiologist commented, "Runner, huh? I see more middle-aged guys like you in here for the same operations over and over and over. You'll be in for a knee replacement eventually." He wanted to tell the knock-out doc to fuck off, but he fell asleep and never saw him again... comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700174 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:27:28 -0800 VicNebulous By: Obscure Reference http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700232 <em>"Runner, huh? "</em> Many with knee issues don't bother getting them fixed. Runners, however need to do so to continue running. I had several operations between marathons and could use another but since I only run 2 miles at a time now, I can do without further surgery. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700232 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:46:44 -0800 Obscure Reference By: notreally http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700233 <em>A year and a half later, I've lost 65 pounds from my peak weight. I've run many 5ks, a few 10ks, a half-marathon, and a full marathon. I'm training for my second and third marathons and I hope to run at least two more halves this winter. And my knees don't hurt a bit.<strong> I am totally cured.</strong> </em> I see you are not superstitious either. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700233 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:47:34 -0800 notreally By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700247 I was addressing mitheral at the start of my previous comment. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700247 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:55:46 -0800 Mister_A By: Comrade_robot http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700265 <em>3. BMI has a greater effect on OA than running. posted by Mister_A at 1:11 PM on August 18 [+] [!] </em> This is already rather well known, isn't it? Obesity is one of the leading indicators for OA. (So is previous knee injury.) For example: <em>Results: In 1983 to 1985, 468 subjects (33%) had radiographic knee osteoarthritis. For men, the risk of knee osteoarthritis was increased in those in the heaviest quintile of weight at examination 1 compared with those in the lightest three quintiles (age-adjusted relative risk, 1.51; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.14 to 1.98); risk was not increased for those in the second heaviest quintile (relative risk, 1.0). The association between weight and knee osteoarthritis was stronger in women than in men; for women in the most overweight quintile at examination 1, relative risk was 2.07 (95% CI, 1.67 to 2.55), and for those in the second heaviest group, relative risk was 1.44 (95% CI, 1.11 to 1.86). This link between obesity and subsequent osteoarthritis persisted after controlling for serum uric acid level and physical activity level, and was strongest for persons with severest radiographic disease. Obesity at examination 1 was associated with the risk of developing both symptomatic and asymptomatic osteoarthritis.</em> Obesity and Knee Osteoarthritis The Framingham Study David T. Felson, MD, MPH; Jennifer J. Anderson, PhD; Allan Naimark, MD; Alexander M. Walker, MD, DrPH; and Robert F. Meenan, MD, MPH comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700265 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:04:02 -0800 Comrade_robot By: maudlin http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700284 I ran through an entire brutally cold winter outside with decent shoes and loved it, but then I developed some serious knee pain, similar to shmegegge's, and stopped. I tried various gym machines, including ellipticals, but never liked them. They made me feel like veal in a pair of Nikes. Now I ride my bike all over Toronto (and Mississauga, and Oakville) and I feel like a wild animal being hunted for sport. Much better. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700284 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:14:08 -0800 maudlin By: jimmythefish http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700314 <em>"Runner, huh? I see more middle-aged guys like you in here for the same operations over and over and over. You'll be in for a knee replacement eventually." </em> Well, this I can see. From an evolutionary standpoint, after about age 40 everything's a bonus. If you were this old 100,000 years ago you were a wizard. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700314 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:26:00 -0800 jimmythefish By: caddis http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700341 Just running alone, especially when you say take it up well into adulthood after not exercising for years, may not strengthen the muscles supporting the knee and could lead to problems. I think any running program should be coupled with a general strengthening and conditioning program to protect your knees, ankles, back etc. The NYT article comes with a short video showing some good exercises to strengthen the muscles supporting the knee. To protect your back you want a strong core and of course run upright. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700341 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:36:31 -0800 caddis By: Evangeline http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700344 <em>If you were this old 100,000 years ago you were a wizard.</em> I am Evangeline the Highlighted. I really wanted to run. Really, really. I had tried it very briefly several years ago, but it was too hard on my feet. So a couple of years ago, I decided to give it a go with a trainer to help me stay motivated and in good form. I went to a fancy store where they videotaped me running on a treadmill and recommended shoes. I lasted for about 2 months before my right knee started hurting so bad I had to quit. And my feet - ugh. Still, I wish I could do it. <em>I love it when people who don't run tell me that my body should be falling apart. Tell it to my 16% body fat and fucking awesome body density, suckers!</em> I don't really know what 16% body fat looks like, but every hardcore marathon runner I know looks like a famine victim. But you go on with your bad self. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700344 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:36:55 -0800 Evangeline By: Mister_A http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700378 What's not well known or clear, Comrade_robot, is whether the small but significant difference in BMI between the two groups (something like 22 vs 23), with both groups still in the "normal" range, can mask hypothetical deleterious effects of running in this group of patients. Personally, I don't think so, but that's why you do the experiment. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700378 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:53:42 -0800 Mister_A By: bonobothegreat http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700422 I always hated running when I was younger but took up a gentle program a couple of years ago. 2 or 3 miles, every other day shakes out all the muscle kinks and eliminates my back pain. I lost 30 pounds. I've had having problems with my left knee but I think I'm getting over it by turning my toes outward a bit more and doing proper, deep squats to build up my quads. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700422 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:14:20 -0800 bonobothegreat By: shmegegge http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700447 you know, this has gotten me thinking: don't a lot of people run, who aren't what we'd normally classify as "runners?" I mean, don't pretty much all fitness buffs do some kind of running for their cardio routine? I know some people do elipticals, or bikes, or stair masters, but usually more treadmill stuff, right? is this something that affects a lot of fitness buffs who might not be competitive or amateur distance runners? comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700447 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:22:01 -0800 shmegegge By: srboisvert http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700476 <em>Now I ride my bike all over Toronto (and Mississauga, and Oakville) and I feel like a wild animal being hunted for sport. Much better</em> I used to cycle the credit river valley trail riding in and climbing out and riding in and climbing out almost every day I could. Specifically to make my knees hurt. Now I live in England and would like to go on a cycle holiday somewhere flat to give my knees a break. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700476 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:31:52 -0800 srboisvert By: tkchrist http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700525 I have been somewhat brutal to my body over the years. Doing some very high impact activities that have, over the last 30 years, worn out some parts. My knees, and ankles (and feet) particularly. Everything people do know that is supposed to be a curative - bare foot training, core training, HIT training, I did all that BY DEFAULT for decades. And you know I think all these claims of efficacy are exaggerated at best. I'm constantly nursing one injury or another that people who just do Yoga don't have. People kept trying to tell me that running was "good" for my knees. So I would keep at it. Only about 15-20 miles per week. And inevitably after four or five months a knee would go out and I'd have to lay off for a month or two. I got fed up with the constant damage and I can't stand the shit anymore. Though I think it was the combination of Thai boxing and running. Constantly kicking pads AND running I don't think the two are sustainable for most people over 35. Now that I've reduced impact in my training I feel 100% better. I jog/walk stairs for 22 minutes 2-3 times per week. Do a cross-fit style mostly body weight work out 2-3 times per week. And only do boxing/kickboxing 2-3 times per week. With lots of shadow boxing an jump rope. No running. I'm not falling for it again, study or no. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700525 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:46:11 -0800 tkchrist By: Barry B. Palindromer http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700580 The human body is pretty amazing at adapting to the stresses placed on it. As someone who does not enjoy running and gets most of my cardio commuting on a bicycle, it makes me happy that all those friendly people I pass along the canal aren't doing permanent damage to their knees. Movement is medicine, after all. Now if only the heavy squat could get off the hook for destroying knees. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700580 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:08:41 -0800 Barry B. Palindromer By: zardoz http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700885 A few months ago I bought a pair of Nike Frees. They are--hands down--the most comfortable shoe I've ever owned, and I wear them as much as possible. These shoes have little to no support for your ankles, so it simulates running barefoot, though of course with a rubber sole for protection against the road, glass, etc. The human foot is a product of millions of years of evolution, and there is an arch in it for a reason--it holds up the weight of the entire body. And humans were meant to run. What modern shoes do is protect the foot and take away the shock to the arch. A good idea, but this weakens the rest of the leg, including the knees. My knees used to hurt from time to time, but now that I'm wearing these Frees, the knee problems are gone. I recommend them to everyone. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700885 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:03:50 -0800 zardoz By: smoke http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2700950 <em>I'm one of the lucky ones that can run 100 mile weeks in paper-thin racing flats and not suffer a hint of damage</em> Ah, this was me until about 8-10 weeks ago (minus 50 miles, natch). Then I did something to my foot. :( No I'm struggling to get to five kms, my foot is hurting from about 3/4 way through, I've dropped a coupla hundred on a podiatrist with no end in sight. What used to be an enjoyable, liberating, <em>unthinking</em> pleasure has become a source of anxiety, thought and a small amount of pain, interpersed by doubts as to whether I'll ever get another 20km run again. 'Ware the lure of flats people! Padding is not the ultimate evil. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2700950 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:52:05 -0800 smoke By: smartypantz http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2701434 <em>shmegegge, that sounds like patella femoral syndrome posted by batou_ at 5:59 PM on August 18 [+] [!] </em> I second this as I have been diagnosed with chrondromalacia / patella femoral syndrome and my symptoms were exactly the same. Sitting with bent knees for long periods is unbearable, and when my knees are "acting up" it can be excruciating to go from a full squatting position to standing, and even going up stairs can be painful. It's basically an inflammation under the knee cap. It's also called "runner's knee" which i find hilarious as I have never ever been a runner. I do cycle however, and if you have your seat too low, it can really aggravate this condition. I have also been advised <strong>not</strong> to run or do lots of jumping. It was explained to me that me kneecaps were tracking wrong as the muscles holding them in place were imbalanced. So now I have a bunch of specific exercises that target those muscles so they will bring my kneecaps into alignment and theoretically reduce the pain. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_knee">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_knee</a> I think some people's bodies are made for running and some, like mine, are absolutely not. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2701434 Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:06:40 -0800 smartypantz By: Mitheral http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2701812 <em>"The human foot is a product of millions of years of evolution, and there is an arch in it for a reason--it holds up the weight of the entire body"</em> So is the appendix. The vast majority of that millions of years our ancestors were walking on all fours. You can see it in our back that the human skeleton is a far from optimal design for a creature walking upright. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2701812 Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:58:34 -0800 Mitheral By: infinitywaltz http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2701909 The appendix holds up the weight of the entire body? I <b>knew</b> it was there for a reason! comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2701909 Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:29:00 -0800 infinitywaltz By: msalt http://www.metafilter.com/84233/Use-it-or-lose-it-run-for-knee-health#2702114 I started running at 43, being totally out of shape, with a then-girlfriend who was a big runner. At first, my knees hurt a lot and I was worried that I was damaging them. But as jimmythefish said, it's about the muscles (tendons? ligaments?) around the knees, not the joints themselves. Running built them up, and I can run 8-10 miles w/out knee pain now. Here's what works for me: 1) DON'T run every day, not even short jogs. Alternate runs with leg weights, yoga or both. 2) Start with very short runs and build up very gradually. 3) Don't be shy to stop and walk when it hurts. Pick it up again when you can. 4) Run on trails or anything other than pavement, if possible. This helps with boredom, too. 5) Stretch, not before you run, but after about a half mile. 6) Don't worry about speed, at all. Just find the pace your body likes. 7) Good protective shoes, changed frequently. Nike Pegasus ($75, highly padded) work for me. Nike Frees when I don't run build up my foot strength and seem to help. comment:www.metafilter.com,2009:site.84233-2702114 Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:58:27 -0800 msalt ¡°Why?¡± asked Larry, in his practical way. "Sergeant," admonished the Lieutenant, "you mustn't use such language to your men." "Yes," accorded Shorty; "we'll git some rations from camp by this evenin'. Cap will look out for that. 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