²Ô¾®¿Õ·¬ºÅѸÀ×Á´½Ó

    1. <form id=VHjPPVrdo><nobr id=VHjPPVrdo></nobr></form>
      <address id=VHjPPVrdo><nobr id=VHjPPVrdo><nobr id=VHjPPVrdo></nobr></nobr></address>

      *** Voting for the MeFiCoFo Board has begun! ***
      September General Site Update | 9/27 MeFiCoFo Board Update


      Do people act ethically out of true morality or fear of consequences?
      September 19, 2024 7:45 AM   Subscribe

      Ring of Gyges: A shepherd named Gyges discovers a magical ring that grants him the power of invisibility when he twists the ring on his finger. With this newfound power, Gyges seduces the queen, kills the king, and takes over the kingdom. The Ring of Gyges is a dialogue featured in The Republic by Plato. The story raises a moral question: would people still act justly if they could act unjustly without fear of being caught or punished?

      This lecture is a deep dive into Ring of Gyges and also explores a related question from contemporary psychologist Daniel Batson: Do we genuinely want to be moral, or do we merely want to appear so? Batson¡¯s experiment revealed that when unobserved, people prioritize self-perception over fairness. But here¡¯s the twist: When faced with a mirror, their behavior shifted toward prosocial actions. Even self-observation nudges us toward morality.

      This video brings Ring of Gyges to life by asking ordinary New Yorkers what kinds of things they would do if they were invisible.

      The Ring of Gyges presents a perennial moral quandary: Do people behave ethically due to intrinsic goodness, or merely because they fear societal repercussions? Is justice an inherent truth or a construct?
      posted by rageagainsttherobots (76 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite
       
      People must not do much self-reflection then. I know that when I do things that I personally consider immoral, I cannot escape my own inner conscience.

      Over time it's a great conditioning tactic for taking fewer and fewer actions that go against your morals, but it really sucks when the inner monolog won't shut up about all the shifty things you did as a teenager.
      posted by sharp pointy objects at 8:03 AM on September 19, 2024 [41 favorites]


      The first thing you are going to want to do with an invisibility ring is avoid crossing the street.
      posted by surlyben at 8:09 AM on September 19, 2024 [31 favorites]


      I feel like all ethical analysis would go easier if we just admitted that we're a little bit good and a little bit bad. There's not much of a system to it, and it has more to do with our sympathies and imaginations than, like, some internalized ruleset. And those sympathies and imaginations are extremely context-dependent--how stressed has your day been? Are you hungry? Did you just have the best night's sleep ever? What you do with your magic invisibility ring is going to be so complicated.
      posted by mittens at 8:14 AM on September 19, 2024 [27 favorites]


      Tolkien¡¯s take, in his epic retelling of this parable, is that power itself pulls us irresistibly toward the bad. Our morality is not necessarily from the consequences that we fear, but our interdependence in the fabric of community that keeps us accountable. When we don¡¯t need anything from others, we don¡¯t need to act in a way that acknowledges their rights (hence why extreme wealth is called ¡°having ¡®fuck you¡¯ money¡±

      There¡¯s also a pithy tweet I can¡¯t find now that says ¡°Superman comics aren¡¯t a power fantasy, they¡¯re a fantasy of what if the people who had power were good¡±.
      posted by Jon_Evil at 8:20 AM on September 19, 2024 [51 favorites]


      Would invisibly sneaking into the headquarters of the Heritage Foundation and burning the place to the ground count as a just or an unjust act?
      posted by Faint of Butt at 8:21 AM on September 19, 2024 [8 favorites]


      Yes
      posted by Jon_Evil at 8:26 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      Would invisibly sneaking into the headquarters of the Heritage Foundation and burning the place to the ground count as a just or an unjust act?
      That depends on where you come down on the ¡°punching a Nazi¡± question. I¡¯m on the side of ¡°it¡¯s wrong to randomly punch a Nazi, but it probably feels good.¡± So I answer ¡°unjust, but fun.¡±
      posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:26 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      do you wash your hands after using the toilet if there's no one else in the bathroom?
      posted by chavenet at 8:26 AM on September 19, 2024 [5 favorites]


      "Would invisibly sneaking into the headquarters of the Heritage Foundation and burning the place to the ground count as a just or an unjust act?"

      Some people argue that certain laws are inherently unjust. Personally, I believe this act is unjust. As a bit of a deontologist, I tend to follow duties and laws.
      posted by rageagainsttherobots at 8:33 AM on September 19, 2024


      So basically it's the shopping cart test.
      posted by nestor_makhno at 8:42 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      "...would people still act justly if they could act unjustly without fear of being caught or punished?"

      Some would, a lot wouldn't.
      posted by aleph at 8:50 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      I did tons of stupid stuff as a younger person, including ethically dubious stuff. I did some out of ignorance, some out of unusual pressure (anxiety), and some... well i knew it was the wrong thing but i did it anyways.

      I think it's fair to say that I have evolved. Much of that is from mentally revisiting my young transgressions through the lens of experience and time. Like sharp pointy objects above, yeah I do spend a lot of time regretting the mistakes of my past. Most, I cannot fix. I'm also blessed with a partner whose own moral compass is strong and clear, and she's taught me a lot, and has inspired me to be better.

      So, I believe it's possible to grow, to become a person who operates more out of morality, and less out of fear of consequences. To me this is more important than analyzing a behaviour at just one point in time.
      posted by Artful Codger at 8:50 AM on September 19, 2024 [10 favorites]


      I had "power corrupts" absolutely drilled into my head like anvils being dropped on it in high school. If you don't have to care about the little people and can do what you want without consequence (oh, shoot someone on 5th Avenue), why would you bother? Why wouldn't you do what you want, whenever you want?

      This sort of thing is why I avoid power and don't even want to have so much as a tiny, tiny taste of it for fear I'd turn into an asshole.
      posted by jenfullmoon at 8:57 AM on September 19, 2024 [5 favorites]


      If the punishment is assured and immediate, then punishment maybe drives morality.
      But people are pretty good at rationalizing.

      If it doesn't, then it has no factor and no place. I don't not kill people because I'm scared of going to jail.
      posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on September 19, 2024


      I should think kings in themselves are an adequate natural experiment for the question. They don¡¯t live without consequences but they have fewer consequences than a subject, and delayed longer.
      posted by clew at 9:03 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I guy I was running with yesterday offered me $5 per mile to steal a drum from a drum circle and run away with it. I (hopefully obviously) said no to the ludicrous proposition, for a number of reasons:

      - I don't steal
      - I especially don't steal instruments from musicians
      - I find "pay someone to do something unethical" to be morally repellent
      - Even if none of those things were true, it was a very low-ball offer

      Dude believed strongly that everyone had their price, that nothing was beyond the average person if a substantial enough sum was dangled before them. He's a Harvard MBA and a CEO, of course.

      So I would say the answer to the question in the TFA is "it depends" because I definitely have a moral compass that isn't based on the mores of my immediate environment. CEO dude? Not so much.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 9:16 AM on September 19, 2024 [7 favorites]


      I guy I was running with yesterday offered me $5 per mile to steal a drum from a drum circle and run away with it.

      $5 a mile is absurdly low, but I would steal a drum from a drum circle if my reward was sufficient to replace the stolen drum.
      posted by Faint of Butt at 9:20 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      Everyone else would do that with the Ring of Gyges, but I'm different.
      posted by Reyturner at 9:20 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I would steal a drum from a drum circle for free, as a public service.

      But seriously, I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror. I try to be good for me, not for others
      posted by kerf at 9:23 AM on September 19, 2024 [7 favorites]


      Without wanting to sound dismissive, I don't think this is the most interesting question. What I mean is, if I'm watching a show where a character is presented with a moral choice, it's not particularly interesting when they choose "good" and not "evil". Most people do that. Few people actively decide to be evil (I know it doesn't always feel that way) and consequences aren't really that important. I mean, atheists don't fear going to hell, but that doesn't make us all enthusiastic sinners. I mean, maybe a bit... but you get my point.

      What I find interesting, again talking about fiction here, is when a character is faced with a dilemma with no straightforward "good" or "evil" choices. Maybe their family is being held hostage, or whatever. Writers know this, which is why it's a bit of a clich¨¦.

      In other words, human behaviour is rarely as simple as a binary good/evil choices. Most bad people who are doing bad things think they are in the right, and most can provide some kind of rationalisation, even if it's just holding on to whatever power/wealth/security they have. That makes for a much more interesting set of decisions, and a much more nuanced understanding of human behaviour, I think.

      Tolkienesque good vs. evil is inherently a simplification. Reality is more complex, is what I'm saying.
      posted by Acey at 9:23 AM on September 19, 2024 [9 favorites]


      I guy I was running with yesterday offered me $5 per mile to steal a drum from a drum circle and run away with it.

      Next time, your answer is to counteroffer $.50 a mile. Everyone may have a price, but the goal is to figure out the other person's. That's how you know if they are cruel or just need money.
      posted by The_Vegetables at 9:24 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      "We'll begin with a reign of terror."
      (Claude Rains as the Invisible Man, 1933)
      posted by thatwhichfalls at 9:29 AM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]



      do you wash your hands after using the toilet if there's no one else in the bathroom?


      Putting aside the social protocol and "ew" factor and speaking as someone who has had an antibiotic resistant bacterial infection that I promise you do not want, please feel free to message me for graphic details if you're not sure you'd answer "yes."
      posted by thivaia at 9:35 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      do you wash your hands after using the toilet if there's no one else in the bathroom?

      F YES. It is really, really weird to me that people would only wash their hands if others were looking. Like, who wants poophands and peehands?
      posted by grumpybear69 at 9:41 AM on September 19, 2024 [10 favorites]


      Also - before I watch the thing - I'd concede that consequences and/or the social contract are relevant and do factor into decisionmaking. The threat of prison or ostracism play a part. But my feeling is that we as a society wield incarceration as a hammer and everything looks like a nail. It's been a couple of centuries now since we instituted our current system of prisons/factories/schools as a means of social control, and I'd say on the whole it's been a massive self-own. Now China's attempting social credit scores, which is doomed to fail for the same reasons. Religion at least has a more carrot-and-stick approach, but the days of a godfearing populace are mostly behind us.

      Ultimately, until people feel a part of something greater and a valued member of a community, they will continue to break the social contract. Not just because of opportunism and greed and all the other reasons, but because the powers that be haven't been holding up their end of that contract for some time, if they ever did.
      posted by Acey at 9:50 AM on September 19, 2024 [5 favorites]


      If I were invisible, probably the first thing I would do is get unintentionally shoved off a crowded sidewalk onto a busy street and run over by a bus.
      posted by jamjam at 9:51 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I think that if I had a ring of invisibility, I would figure out a way to help a confederate cheat at high-stakes poker.
      posted by egypturnash at 9:51 AM on September 19, 2024


      Dude believed strongly that everyone had their price, that nothing was beyond the average person if a substantial enough sum was dangled before them. He's a Harvard MBA and a CEO, of course.

      This is related to another pet theory I have, which is that high executive compensation isn¡¯t actually an expression of market value, but a bribe paid by investors for performing immoral actions while allowing the shareholders to be removed from perceived accountability.
      posted by Jon_Evil at 10:00 AM on September 19, 2024 [20 favorites]


      Another thought I just had: if you are playing a single player video game, then there's really nothing stopping you from cheating, hacking, using console commands to give yourself all the money, etc. There's literally no consequences. Yet people don't really do this. It ruins the fun.

      I think the same is true in life. Sure, you could cheat, you could steal; maybe you face consequences, maybe you get away with it. But is that fun? Is it enjoyable to be looking over your shoulder all the time? For most people, it's not. But there will always be some.
      posted by Acey at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2024 [6 favorites]


      Understand, Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
      posted by Foosnark at 10:08 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      It should be noted that "being invisible" merely means people can't see you. They can still smell you, hear you, feel you, "sense" you and, most importantly, collect your fingerprints and DNA evidence.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 10:14 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      I¡¯m pretty sure killing a monarch is a pro-social act. Setting yourself up as the monarch afterward is the problem.
      posted by Just the one swan, actually at 10:22 AM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      Another thought I just had: if you are playing a single player video game, then there's really nothing stopping you from cheating, hacking, using console commands to give yourself all the money, etc. There's literally no consequences. Yet people don't really do this. It ruins the fun.

      I remember reading an essay about how there really weren't many video games that offered a real moral choice, rather than just establishing a reputation system with different factions -- i.e. Skyrim's Nords vs. Imperials, or Fallout's NCR vs. Brotherhood, etc. One passage that stuck with me is the idea that, sure Mario is saving the Princess and that's good, right? Except there's no button you can press that would allow you to, for example, sexually assault the Princess even though a game with a true moral choice would have that button, so that the player would constantly know that they should never ever press it.

      Two games that defy expectations there would be Undertale (where you past choices leave permanent marks) and Spec Ops: The Line (for reasons that are a big spoiler).
      posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:34 AM on September 19, 2024


      Is is just me and I have to be naked, or do all the things I¡¯m carrying and wearing also become invisible. I don¡¯t think it would change the morality of what I¡¯d do but it would probably affect what I could get away with.
      posted by seanmpuckett at 10:35 AM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      yeah, this is difficult because every time I think of a thing I might do, I realize it might cause harm to a powerless innocent person and I just cannot:

      example: get a rez at a Michelin 3 star restaurant and eat the $$$$$$ meal with $$$$$$ wine and then go to the restroom and ring up. best dine-n-dash ever. but the waitstaff would take the blame, lose their job etc., ugh. can't do that.
      posted by supermedusa at 10:44 AM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      I remember reading an essay about how there really weren't many video games that offered a real moral choice

      Ah, that reminds me of this hbomberguy bit in his video about Fallout New Vegas, which I now realise I pretty much internalized and regurgitated earlier. But he's bang on the money.

      In the bit I linked he references Mass Effect, a game which gave you a good/evil choice. Data they collected showed that 92% of players picked the good option. And the point hbomberguy makes is that if everyone is making the same choice, then it's not a particularly interesting one.
      posted by Acey at 10:46 AM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      If I were invisible, I'd blunder around and knock shit over, because my retinas would be invisible, so I'd be blind.

      If the magic ring let me operate as a completely undetectable entity, then, yeah. I'd probably spend most of my free time trolling the rich and powerful. Punch up, and all that. I can be bad without being evil. :)
      posted by chromecow at 10:51 AM on September 19, 2024 [6 favorites]


      Acey, I've played through Baldur's Gate 3 a few times, and am currently in the midst of an Evil playthrough with friends. It's surprisingly difficult to maintain, and we frequently fall back on chaos as a proxy for evil. And we rationalize the badness of good actions we really want to take. Brains are weird.
      posted by chromecow at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I know that when I do things that I personally consider immoral, I cannot escape my own inner conscience.

      Yeah, same. I chalk it up to being raised Catholic, but with left-leaning politics on top of it.

      ... it really sucks when the inner monolog won't shut up about all the shifty things you did as a teenager.

      Another thing Catholic childhood did to me - it kept me from doing shifty things as a teenager. My post-lapse rebellion phase came after college and mostly consisted of a few years of casual hookups, which arguably might only have hurt me (if they can even be said to have hurt me).

      ....Although something has just occurred to me - there's a truer test of people's ethics than Gyges' ring. Which is:

      If you have (or had) a Twitter account; you know the stuff you said on that Twitter account? Would you have said any of it still if your real name and address were publicly associated with that account?
      posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:08 AM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      I definitely get that, chromecow. I never really consciously play evil in my own games, usually I'll go out of my way to make the most moral choice. F:NV is a great example of some very difficult choices, as per the video and the sharecroppers situation in that game (spoilers, by the way). People argue on the forums about the "right" moral decision to this day.

      Recently I've just finished Cyberpunk 2077: Phantom Liberty DLC, which is a masterclass in storytelling and player choice. The final decision (no spoilers) is nuanced, agonising, and you may lack full information depending on earlier choices. And the choice you do make is massively impactful, in that you play out an entirely different ending as a result. I really hope others learn from it, because it's so much more involving and effective as a result.
      posted by Acey at 11:08 AM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      you know the stuff you said on that Twitter account? Would you have said any of it still if your real name and address were publicly associated with that account?

      Well in my case it's all silly non-political jokes, so sure why not.
      posted by Greg_Ace at 11:31 AM on September 19, 2024


      nothing stopping you from cheating, hacking, using console commands to give yourself all the money, etc. There's literally no consequences. Yet people don't really do this. It ruins the fun.

      People absolutely do this, what are you talking about? I started replaying the old NES Dragon Warrior games recently (I'm on 3 now) and I absolutely game genie hacked the things so they wouldn't be so goddamn grindy. Now, I did exercise some restraint (I didn't throw every code in the book at them) but the end result was that it allowed me to rebalance the games to be more fun. But I could see myself absolutely doing that in a context where I'm more interested in the story than the developer's idea of what the gameplay loop should be like.
      posted by axiom at 11:31 AM on September 19, 2024


      Oh sure, I've done the same. Hell, Skyrim was so bugged it was practically a requirement to use the console at times. But there's a difference between rebalancing or bugfixing or skipping the grind and playing God mode. And sure, when you've already played the thing a bunch of times maybe you just want to turn on infinite money, but most people at least try and play the game as designed initially, despite how trivial it is to cheat. Some people just want to brag that they have all the stuff, but I'd argue most are in it to have a more meaningful experience. I guess it depends what you want from the game, or from life.
      posted by Acey at 11:46 AM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      And some people are just whiney shits who complain "it's too haaarrrd" without ever really trying or risking anything or learning new skills and just use the game shark instantly because putting forth any effort at all would be against their self-narrative of "everything should be easy, everything should be handed to me."
      posted by seanmpuckett at 11:55 AM on September 19, 2024


      you could get in to Taylor Swift concerts for free! (without really hurting anyone)

      you could sneak into fancy cocktail parties but I don't know if people would notice the missing canapes and champagne...

      you could sneak into the houses of really rich people and steal their stuff (ie only hurting rich people, not retail staff) like fancy clothes, jewelry, cash, whatevs.

      so depending on the way the ring works, if you are like me, you could enjoy some fancy stuff, but not really benefit from it much, but maybe not hurt any "innocent" people in the process. (ie., you probably have a hard time fencing the rich people stuff, but you could just wear it around your house for fun.)
      posted by supermedusa at 11:58 AM on September 19, 2024


      And some people are just whiney shits who complain "it's too haaarrrd" without ever really trying or risking anything or learning new skills

      Fucking please. Some people are sane and see playing games as an activity that's supposed to be fun and not a second job you have to grind and GIT GUD at. If you enjoy that great but if you're not enjoying the game do what you gotta do to make it fun.
      posted by star gentle uterus at 12:04 PM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      I annoyed some of the people in the forum for a pvp game that I play by saying that the players who use exploits and bot are choosing to play on easy difficulty because they want an easy win. They came out with some kind of a convoluted rationale for cheating which amounted to themselves being the only ones smart enough to cheat, and their cheating being proof of their superior intelligence. The concept that "if you can't win without cheating, you're not very good at the game," was one they felt so obviously untrue that it wasn't worth debating. Those poor shmos didn't even write the botting scripts they use, they just downloaded them from a not-hard-to-fine source.

      I'd say that something less than five percent of the players take advantage of botting and exploits to win the game, although quite a few more players do bot to reduce the grind. However that five percent of cheating pvpers make themselves really, really visible because they want all the other players to know they are winning. I'd hazard a guess that in real world situations without critical real world consequences, the proportion of people who would use the ring for evil would be similar.
      posted by Jane the Brown at 12:05 PM on September 19, 2024


      ... ehhh sorry i think i was talking about something else. working through some crap here, my bad.
      posted by seanmpuckett at 12:06 PM on September 19, 2024


      Also games say absolutely nothing about morality because they are not real. There are no moral choices in them, ever, good or bad, because they are not real. It is actually disturbing to me how many people don't seem to be able to distinguish between reality and fantasy.
      posted by star gentle uterus at 12:07 PM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I think I'm done, if people are going to be this fighty about a philosophical thought experiment. Christ. Forget I brought it up.
      posted by Acey at 12:17 PM on September 19, 2024


      I must respectfully disagree with you, star gentle uterus. Sure, games can be escapist fantasy. They can also be tools people use to work through their issues. And given that thought experiments are the backbone of philosophy, that take seems to invalidates a couple of thousand years of philosophical inquiry. Are books not useful for self reflection because the stories aren't real?

      I just played through Slay the Princess, which is somewhere between a game and an interactive novel, and I found it to be sad, thought -provoking, and each time I had to make a choice in that game (which was 100% about making morally difficult choices with limited information), I was really having to interrogate my personal feelings about how relationships work.

      Games can be played mindlessly, without any real moral reflection or interpretation. The same is true with movies, books, poems and art in general. But, in my opinion, that does not mean the art has nothing to say about morality, it means the message hasn't been received.
      posted by chromecow at 12:24 PM on September 19, 2024 [5 favorites]


      I think I'm done, if people are going to be this fighty about a philosophical thought experiment. Christ. Forget I brought it up.

      If you are referring to ¡°moral¡± choices in video games having any value in discussing morality then I just disagree with your premise as stated above. They can¡¯t because they aren¡¯t real and it¡¯s weird to me that people forget that.
      posted by star gentle uterus at 12:24 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      You don't believe in games?
      posted by surlyben at 12:30 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      Are books not useful for self reflection because the stories aren't real?

      You¡¯re conflating that reflection with the defining feature of games: interactivity. It¡¯s one thing to say what you did in a game made you think about your behavior or the world. It¡¯s another to say the action you took in the game was good or bad. If you have the option to torture a family in a game there is no moral element to it because it¡¯s not real. No person is actually harmed. It¡¯s just an action in a game. What¡¯s odd to me is ascribing moral value to the game actions themselves.
      posted by star gentle uterus at 12:31 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      Ok. Hair successfully split. In a game, you'd get an achievement for that.

      ?\_(¥Ä)_/?
      posted by chromecow at 12:34 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      Data they collected showed that 92% of players picked the good option. And the point hbomberguy makes is that if everyone is making the same choice, then it's not a particularly interesting one.

      I really liked Fable when I was younger and decided to do an evil playthrough. The thing is, most of the things you have to do to play the game and advance the plot are considered good. Killing a monster that's attacking you, which happens constantly, is good, for example. This meant I had to go out of my way to do evil things that were boring or nonsensical. I bought a ton of crunchy chicks (eating live baby chicks is evil, but only a little) and ate them constantly whenever I was walking just to keep my evil points up in case I accidentally helped someone. It was so tedious and I didn't get to see or do anything new or interesting, so why bother?
      posted by birthday cake at 12:37 PM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I've said elsewhere that the main crime I'd commit with the ring of Gyges would be to ride a bicycle around town and attract stares. Which is obviously flippant, but when you point out that the parable is all about the moral effects of being observed or unobserved, I find it striking that my reaction to being unobservable was to make sure I was observed anyway.
      posted by baf at 12:44 PM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      "Yes" posted by Jon_Evil
      Eponyhaha
      posted by symbioid at 12:48 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      When faced with a mirror, their behavior shifted toward prosocial actions. Even self-observation nudges us toward morality.
      this is what makes Dracula so scary
      posted by mbrubeck at 1:24 PM on September 19, 2024 [7 favorites]


      If you are referring to ¡°moral¡± choices in video games having any value in discussing morality then I just disagree with your premise as stated above. They can¡¯t because they aren¡¯t real and it¡¯s weird to me that people forget that.

      I don't really appreciate the suggestion that I don't know that it's not real. I was simply saying that I have been presented with fictional scenarios in the form of games where there were no consequences and I could act with impunity. And since this hypothetical boils down to "if you had impunity, would you still behave morally?" I thought it might be an interesting comparison. Certainly some people take that opportunity to play at being evil, but the data suggests most do not, given a simplistic binary black/white. And, if given a more complex choice, many agonise over making the "right" choice.

      I'm aware that you can't infer from that that people in the real world would, if given impunity, not change their behaviour in all kinds of ways. Power corrupts. Of course it's different. But it is at least worth noting that millions of people are given the opportunity, however cartoonish or complex, to explore fictional worlds, and it seems that a surprising number at least attempt to take it seriously and imagine what the "correct" moral choice might be.

      I'm reminded of the phrase "how you do anything is how you do everything". So sure, some people would immediately become corrupted and intoxicated by the power, hence why we have so many real world megalomaniacs. But I think it's pretty cynical to imagine that everyone is a secret psychopath, restrained only by threat of punishment of some kind. Depends how humanist or misanthrope I'm feeling.

      If you think that fictional exploration of morality is not valid or applicable to the real world, then fair enough, but I don't think that's the case.
      posted by Acey at 1:41 PM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      I have never, ever understood this question. There is no scenario in which no one is looking!

      At the very least, you're looking.
      posted by 1024 at 2:05 PM on September 19, 2024 [2 favorites]


      Another thought I just had: if you are playing a single player video game, then there's really nothing stopping you from cheating, hacking, using console commands to give yourself all the money, etc.

      Look, what I do with Kerbal Space Program in the privacy of my man cave is none of your business.
      posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:19 PM on September 19, 2024


      TIL that "play" isn't the same word in my platonic cave as it is in sgu's. Video games are play, both living out a "what if?" with the simulation and it being safe to explore how you feel about the consequences. Soap operas play a similar role in allowing you to see the circumstances of a life-like story without living through it. (And where does true-crime sit for. surviving horrible things?)

      TIL that people remain blind to the community benefit and are willing to see themselves as individuals distinct from the civilisation they're in. Social discourse has individuated people so that our circumstances aren't the high build of generations of civilised ancestors but a pile of plunder waiting to be claimed. Don't poison our well. Don't break our social safety net. Your actions have consequences on all of us.
      posted by k3ninho at 2:21 PM on September 19, 2024


      The ability to act without consequences could enable someone to do actions which are illegal but ethical - eg steal most of Rupert Murdoch's money, leaving him just enough for a comfortable retirement but not a cent more, and donate all of it to helping prevent climate change.
      posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 2:36 PM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      > shopping cart test

      I used to be annoyed at people who don't return the shopping cart.

      Then I figured out I was a boiled frog, with misdirected anger about the wage theft that's being committed.
      posted by Rat Spatula at 2:40 PM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      Boiled frogs rarely return their shopping carts.
      posted by Greg_Ace at 4:42 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

      In all seriousness, part of the value of the ring for me would be literally not needing to look at myself in the mirror. Reduced neuroticism. I think I'd treat myself and others a bit better if I never had to worry that my hair was being weird.
      posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:05 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      If anyone remembers Dark Age of Camelot, at about level 20 one of the mob types you could kill for experience was horses on the Salisbury Plains. I would not kill the horses (whether alone or in a group). I do know they are not real horses. I think this is a fine way to be, though it is not the only way. That was 10+ years ago. I only kill zombies in games now, which I hope we can all agree is the proper way to handle zombies.
      posted by Glinn at 5:06 PM on September 19, 2024 [4 favorites]


      In my two favorite games, I kill monsters and nazi's. It doesn't bother me because it is a game and not reality. I think possibly in reality, I would have a harder time killing monsters than nazis because, I don't know the monster's motivation for the things it does. I don't ascribe evil to things I don't understand, while I definitely ascribe it to nazis. I would probably still have difficulties killing nazis IRL, because they are human and I could still empathize with ending a human life, violently, even an evil one. though I would probably do it anyway.
      If I had this ring, I don't know what I would do. Many of the things I could do alone aren't big enough to be worth doing (steal from the rich, give to the poor). Steal from a small subset of rich people and give to a small subset of poor? Not worth it. It might be fun to walk around stark naked because no one could see, but, I can do that by going home.
      posted by evilDoug at 6:02 PM on September 19, 2024


      I've often wished for a ring of invisibility (that nonetheless made people not walk into me) not to do anything illegal, or even weird, but just to go out and about in the world without dickheads coming over and being aggressive or rude about the fact that I use a power wheelchair.

      What would I do with a ring of invisibility that avoided people bumping into me? Go to a park. Catch the train. Go window shopping. And for once, not get ableist abuse for existing in public while using a wheelchair.

      (I'd also settle for a ring that made me look like an able bodied man, so I could skip ableism and misogyny at the same time.)
      posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:11 PM on September 19, 2024 [8 favorites]


      I ABSOLUTELY WANT A RING THAT MAKES ME LOOK/SOUND LIKE A MAN so I can actually get respect and be listened to. I've been trying to write a 10 minute play about this for YEARS.
      posted by jenfullmoon at 6:48 PM on September 19, 2024 [3 favorites]


      Simone Weil wrote one of her many journal-essays under this title.
      There is nothing more desirable than to get rid of this key**. It should be thrown to the bottom of a well whence it can never again be recovered.

      The ring of Gyges who has become invisible¡ªthis is precisely the act of setting aside: setting oneself aside from the crime one commits; not establishing the connexion between the two.

      The act of throwing away the key, of throwing away the ring of Gyges¡ªthis is the effort proper to the will. It is the act by which, in pain and blindness, we make our way out of the cave.###

      Gyges: ¡®I have become king, and the other king has been assassinated.¡¯ No connexion whatever between these two things. There we have the ring!

      The owner of a factory: ¡®I enjoy this and that expensive luxury and my workmen are miserably poor.¡¯ He may be very sincerely sorry for his workmen and yet not form the connexion.

      For no connexion is formed if thought does not bring it about. Two and two remain indefinitely as two and two unless thought adds them together to make them into four.

      We hate the people who try to make us form the connexions we do not want to form.
      ** "this key" refers to "the faculty of setting things aside" such as blindness to one's in-group bias, conformity, or the detachment of oneself from the consequences of one's own choices and actions, especially when our own interest or pleasure is at stake, etc.
      ### "the cave" refers to Plato's allegory of the cave from The Republic, which is also the source of the discourse of the invisible ring

      My reading is that Weil is saying that the ring of Gyges is our 'faculty of setting aside'. Invisibility, in that fictional account, refers to our own blindness (inability to see ourselves --- inability to make ourselves seen by ourselves --- "invisibility") rather than merely the condition of not being caught by others. Before we become 'invisible' to the world in our sinful acts, we've first blinded ourselves by putting on the ring. To Weil, there's a moral imperative to throwing away the ring, but this is going to be painful, just like the one in Plato's cave feels pain and blindness as his eyes adjust to the real world filled with light. "Throwing away the ring" and "coming out of the cave", to her, are allegories of the same thing.

      Weil's "calling" (for I can't think of a better word) is a passion for the radical reality, in our selves, as well as in the very realities of other human beings ("Every being cries out silently to be read differently. Justice involves submitting ourselves to the wholly real, by actively establishing the real in ourselves (not just in thoughts but our full beings including our actions), by throwing away the ring.
      posted by runcifex at 8:43 PM on September 19, 2024 [8 favorites]


      The answer to this question depends on how you're wired.
      posted by heatherlogan at 9:58 PM on September 19, 2024 [1 favorite]


      I'd use the ring to check out the relatives I've been hiding from for decades. See if I still have any reason to fear - logic may tell me that I'm okay now, but I'd need to SEE them with my own eyes to believe the threat was over.

      So I would use the ring of invisibility to make sure it's safe to be visible again.
      posted by Vigilant at 10:25 AM on September 20, 2024 [2 favorites]


      Understand, Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

      Whereas Bilbo mainly used the one ring to hide from unpleasant relatives. In conclusion Arda is a land of contrasts.
      posted by mscibing at 11:42 AM on September 23, 2024


      If anyone remembers Dark Age of Camelot, at about level 20 one of the mob types you could kill for experience was horses on the Salisbury Plains. I would not kill the horses (whether alone or in a group). I do know they are not real horses. I think this is a fine way to be, though it is not the only way. That was 10+ years ago. I only kill zombies in games now, which I hope we can all agree is the proper way to handle zombies.

      Glinn: this is my problem with JRPGS! They always make their monsters so goddamn beautiful and cool!!!! (I will kill things other than zombies in games, but i definitely have a gradient where the more "realistic" the game is, the less i am willing to kill anything that looks like a person or animal. Fortunately in my favorite game you play as a magic space ninja, so the realism problem is pretty minimal.)
      posted by adrienneleigh at 2:17 PM on September 23, 2024 [1 favorite]


      « Older "She offers us a way forward lit by rationality...   |   Evidence suggesting that earth had a ring in the... Newer »


      This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments




      ¡°Why?¡± asked Larry, in his practical way. "Sergeant," admonished the Lieutenant, "you mustn't use such language to your men." "Yes," accorded Shorty; "we'll git some rations from camp by this evenin'. Cap will look out for that. Meanwhile, I'll take out two or three o' the boys on a scout into the country, to see if we can't pick up something to eat." Marvor, however, didn't seem satisfied. "The masters always speak truth," he said. "Is this what you tell me?" MRS. B.: Why are they let, then? My song is short. I am near the dead. So Albert's letter remained unanswered¡ªCaro felt that Reuben was unjust. She had grown very critical of him lately, and a smarting dislike coloured her [Pg 337]judgments. After all, it was he who had driven everybody to whatever it was that had disgraced him. He was to blame for Robert's theft, for Albert's treachery, for Richard's base dependence on the Bardons, for George's death, for Benjamin's disappearance, for Tilly's marriage, for Rose's elopement¡ªit was a heavy load, but Caro put the whole of it on Reuben's shoulders, and added, moreover, the tragedy of her own warped life. He was a tyrant, who sucked his children's blood, and cursed them when they succeeded in breaking free. "Tell my lord," said Calverley, "I will attend him instantly." HoME²Ô¾®¿Õ·¬ºÅѸÀ×Á´½Ó ENTER NUMBET 0017
      dike3.net.cn
      yeqi7.com.cn
      tehe9.com.cn
      vcp2b.com.cn
      www.zeqie6.com.cn
      www.junei1.com.cn
      cqbgjj.com.cn
      www.663217.com.cn
      70yk.org.cn
      www.1zhenxiu.com.cn
      成人图片四月色月阁 美女小美操逼 综合图区亚洲 苍井空的蓝色天空 草比wang WWW.BBB471.COM WWW.76UUU.COM WWW.2BQVOD.COM WWW.BASHAN.COM WWW.7WENTA.COM WWW.EHU8.COM WWW.XFW333.COM WWW.XF234.COM WWW.XIXILU9.COM WWW.0755MSX.NET WWW.DGFACAI.COM WWW.44DDYY.COM WWW.1122DX.COM WWW.YKB168.COM WWW.FDJWG.COM WWW.83CCCC.COM WWW.7MTP.COM WWW.NXL7.COM WWW.UZPLN.COM WWW.SEA0362.NET WWW.LUYHA.COM WWW.IXIAWAN.COM WWW.HNJXSJ.COM WWW.53PY.COM WWW.HAOYMAO.COM WWW.97PPP.COM 医网性交动态图 龙腾视频网 骚姐av男人天堂444ckcom wwwvv854 popovodcom sss色手机观看 淫荡之妇 - 百度 亚洲人兽交欧美A片 色妹妹wwwsemm22com 人妻激情p 狼国48Q 亚洲成人理论网 欧美男女av影片 家庭乱伦无需任何播放器在线播放 妩媚的尼姑 老妇成人图片大全 舔姐姐的穴 纯洁小处男 pu285ftp 大哥撸鲁鲁修 咪米色网站 丝袜美腿18P 晚上碰上的足交视频 avav9898 狠狠插影院免费观看所视频有电影 熟女良家p 50s人体 幼女av电影资源种子 小说家庭乱伦校园春色 丝袜美女做爱图片 影音先锋强奸影片 裸贷视频在线观 校园春色卡通动漫的 搜索wwwhuangtvcom 色妹影视 戊人网站 大阴茎男人性恋色网 偷拍自怕台湾妹 AV视频插进去 大胆老奶奶妈妈 GoGo全球高清美女人体 曼娜回忆录全文 上海东亚 舔柯蓝的脚 3344d最近十天更新 av在线日韩有码 强奸乱伦性爱淫秽 淫女谁 2233p 123aaaa查询 福利AV网站 世界黄色网址 弟姐撸人人操 婷婷淫色色淫 淫姐姐手机影院 一个释放的蝌蚪窝超碰 成人速播视频 爱爱王国 黄色一级片影视 夫妻主奴五月天 先锋撸撸吧 Xxoo88 与奶奶的激情 我和老女人美妙经历 淫妻色五月 zaiqqc 和姐姐互舔15p 色黄mp4 先锋2018资源 seoquentetved2k 嫩妹妹色妹妹干妹妹 欧美性爱3751www69nnnncom 淫男乱女小说 东方在线Av成人撸一撸 亚洲成人av伦理 四虎影视二级 3p性交 外国人妖口交性交黑人J吧插女人笔视观看 黑道总裁 人人x艹 美女大战大黑吊 神马电影伦理武则天 大鸡八插进的戏 爆操情人 热颜射国产 真实自拍足交 偷拍萝莉洗澡无码视频 哥哥狠狠射狠狠爱 欲体焚情搜狗 妹子啪啪网站 jizzroutn 平井绘里在线观看 肏男女 五月天逍遥社区 网站 私色房综合网成人网 男人和女人caobi 成人共享网站 港台三级片有逼吗 淫龙之王小说 惠美里大战黑人 我为美女姐姐口交 乱论色站 西田麻衣大胆的人体艺术 亚洲 包射网另类酷文在线 就爱白白胖胖大屁股在线播放 欧美淫妻色色色 奥蕾人艺术全套图片 台湾中学生门ed2k 2013国产幼门 WWW_66GGG_COM WWW_899VV_COM 中国老女人草比 qingse9 nvtongtongwaiyintou 哥哥妹妹性爱av电影 欧美和亚洲裸体做爱 肏胖骚屄 美国十此次先锋做爱影视 亚里沙siro 爆操人妻少妇 性交的骚妇 百度音影动漫美女窝骚 WWW_10XXOO_COM 哥两撸裸体图片 香洪武侠电影 胖美奈 我和女儿日屄 上海礼仪小姐 紫微斗数全书 优酷视频联盟 工作压力大怎么办 成人动漫edk 67ijcom WWW15NVNVCOM 东京热逼图 狠狠干自拍 第五色宗 少妇的b毛 t56人体艺术大胆人体模特 大黄狗与美女快播播放 美女露屄禁图 大胆内射少妇 十二种屄 苍井空绿色大战 WWWAFA789COM 淫老婆3p 橹二哥影院影视先锋 日本h动漫继母在线观看 淫乱村庄 强奸少妇采花魔 小泽玛莉亚乱伦电影 婷婷五月红成人网 我爱色洞洞 和老婆日屄图片 哪个网站能看到李宗瑞全集 操小姨的穴 白洁亚洲图片 亚洲色图淫荡内射美女 国外孕妇radio 哪本小说里有个金瓶经的拉完屎扣扣屁眼闻俩下 在线亚洲邪恶图 快播最新波哆野结依 wwwgigi22com 操紧身妹 丁香五月哥 欧美强奸幼童下载wwwgzyunhecom 撸波波rrr777 淫兽传 水淫穴 哥哥干巨乳波霸中文字幕 母子相奸AV视频录像 淫荡的制服丝袜妈妈 有强奸内容的小黄文 哪里艺术片 刘嘉玲人体艺术大胆写真 www婷婷五月天5252bocom 美女护士动态图片 教师制服诱惑a 黄色激情校园小说 怡红院叶子喋 棚户区嫖妓pronhub 肏逼微博 wwppcc777 vns56666com 色哥哥色妹妹内射 ww99anan 清纯秀气的学生妹喝醉 短头发撸碰 苍井空一级片tupian 够爽影院女生 鲁大娘久草 av淘之类的网站 谷露AV日本AV韩国AV 电台有声小说 丽苑春色 小泽玛利亚英语 bl动漫h网 色谷歌短片 免费成人电影 台湾女星综合网 美眉骚导航(荐) 岛国爱情动作片种子 兔牙喵喵在线观看影院 五月婷婷开心之深深爱一本道 动漫福利啪啪 500导航 自拍 综合 dvdes664影音先锋在线观看 水岛津实透明丝袜 rrav999 绝色福利导航视频 200bbb 同学聚会被轮奸在线视频 性感漂亮的保健品推销员上门推销套套和延迟剂时被客户要求当场实验效果操的 羞羞影院每日黄片 小黄视频免费观看在线播放 日本涩青视频 日本写真视频 日本女人大尺度裸体操逼视频 日韩电影网 日本正在播放女教师 在线观看国产自拍 四虎官方影库 男男a片 小武妈妈 人妻免费 视频日本 日本毛片免费视频观看51影院 波多野结衣av医院百度网盘 秋假影院美国影阮日本 1亚欧成人小视频 奇怪美发沙龙店2莉莉影院 av无码毛片 丝袜女王调教的网站有哪些 2499在线观视频免费观看 约炮少妇视频 上床A级片 美尻 无料 w字 主播小电影视频在线观看 自拍性porn 伦理片日本猜人电影 初犬 无码 特级毛片影谍 日日在线操小妹视频 日本无码乱论视频 kinpatu86 在线 欧美色图狠狠插 唐朝AV国产 校花女神肛门自慰视频 免费城人网站 日产午夜影院 97人人操在线视频 俺来也还有什么类似的 caopron网页 HND181 西瓜影音 阿v天堂网2014 秋霞eusses极速播放 柳州莫菁第6集 磁力链 下载丝袜中文字 IPZ-694 ftp 海牙视频成人 韩国出轨漫画无码 rbd561在线观看 色色色 magnet 冲田杏梨爆乳女教师在线 大桃桃(原蜜桃Q妹)最新高清大秀两套6V XXX日本人体艺术三人 城市雄鹰。你个淫娃 久久最新国产动漫在线 A级高清免费一本道 人妻色图 欧美激情艳舞视频 草莓在线看视频自拍 成电人影有亚洲 ribrngaoqingshipin 天天啪c○m 浣肠video在线观看 天堂av无码av欧美av免费看电影 ftxx00 大香蕉水 吉里吉里电影网 日本三级有码视频 房事小视频。 午午西西影院 国内自拍主播 冲田爱佳 经典拳交视频最新在线视频 怡红影晥免费普通用户 青娱乐综合在线观看 藏经阁成人 汤姆影视avtom wwWff153CoM 一本道小视频免费 神马影影院大黄蜂 欧美老人大屁股在线 四级xf 坏木啪 冲田杏梨和黑人bt下载 干莉莉 桃乃木香奈在线高清ck 桑拿888珠海 家庭乱伦视频。 小鸟酱自慰视频在线观看 校园春色 中文字幕 性迷宫0808 迅雷资源来几个 小明看看永久免费视频2 先锋hunta资源 国产偷拍天天干 wwwsezyz4qiangjianluanlun 婷婷五月社区综合 爸爸你的鸡巴太大轻点我好痛 农村妇女买淫视屏 西瓜网赤井美月爆乳女子在校生 97无码R级 日本图书馆暴力强奸在线免费 巨乳爱爱在线播放 ouzouxinjiao 黄色国产视频 成人 自拍 超碰 在线 腿绞论坛 92福利电影300集 人妻x人妻动漫在线 进入 91视频 会计科目汇总表人妻x人妻动漫在线 激情上位的高颜值小少妇 苹果手机能看的A片 一本道av淘宝在线 佐藤美纪 在线全集 深夜成人 国内自拍佛爷在线 国内真实换妻现场实拍自拍 金瓶梅漫画第九话无码 99操人人操 3737电影网手机在线载 91另类视频 微兔云 (指甲油) -(零食) ssni180迅雷中字 超清高碰视频免费观看 成人啪啪小视频网址 美女婶婶当家教在线观看 网红花臂纹身美女大花猫SM微拍视频 帅哥美女搞基在床上搞的视频下载东西 日本视频淫乱 av小视频av小电影 藤原辽子在线 川上优被强奸电影播放 长时间啊嗯哦视频 美女主播凌晨情趣套装开车,各种自·慰加舞技 佳色影院 acg乡村 国产系列欧美系列 本土成人线上免费影片 波罗野结衣四虎精品在线 爆乳幼稚园 国产自拍美女在线观看免插件 黑丝女优电影 色色的动漫视频 男女抽插激情视频 Lu69 无毛伦理 粉嫩少妇9P 欧美女人开苞视频 女同a级片 无码播放 偷拍自拍平板 天天干人人人人干 肏多毛的老女人 夜人人人视频 动漫女仆被揉胸视频 WWW2018AVCOM jizzjizzjizz马苏 巨乳潜入搜查官 藤浦惠在线观看 老鸹免费黄片 美女被操屄视频 美国两性 西瓜影音 毛片ok48 美国毛片基地A级e片 色狼窝图片网 泷泽乃南高清无码片 热热色源20在线观看 加勒比澳门网 经典伦理片abc 激情视频。app 三百元的性交动画 97爱蜜姚网 雷颖菲qq空间 激情床戏拍拍拍 luoli hmanh 男人叉女人视频直播软件 看美女搞基哪个app好 本网站受美坚利合众国 caobike在线视频发布站 女主播电击直肠两小时 狠狠干高清视频在线观看 女学生被强奸的视频软件 欧美喷水番号 欧美自拍视频 武侠古典伦理 m13113美女图片 日本波多野结衣三级无马 美女大桥AV隐退 在线中文字幕亚洲欧美飞机图 xxx,av720p iav国产自拍视频 国内偷拍视频在线 - 百度 国歌产成人网 韩国美女主播录制0821 韩国直播av性 fyeec日本 骚逼播放 偷拍你懂的网站 牡蛎写真视频 初川南个人资源 韩国夏娃 ftp 五十度飞2828 成人区 第五季 视频区 亚洲日韩 中文字幕 动漫 7m视频分类大全电影 动漫黄片10000部免费视频 我骚逼丝袜女网友给上了 日本女人的性生活和下水道囧图黄 肏婶骚屄 欧美美女性爰图 和美女明星做爱舒服吗 乱伦小说小姨 天天舅妈 日本极品淫妇美鲍人体艺术 黄色录像强奸片 逍遥仙境论坛最新地址 人插母动物 黄s页大全 亚洲无码电影网址 幼女乱伦电影 雯雅婷30p caopran在线视频 插b尽兴口交 张佰芝yinbu biantaicaobitupian 台湾18成人电影 勾引同学做爱 动态性交姿势图 日本性交图10p 操逼动态图大全 国产后入90后 quanjialuanlun 裸女条河图片种子 坚挺的鸡吧塞进少妇的骚穴 迅雷亚洲bt www56com 徐老板去农村玩幼女小说故事 大尺度床吻戏大全视频 wwwtp2008com 黑丝大奶av 口述与爸爸做爱 人兽完全插入 欧美大乳12p 77hp 教师 欧美免费黄色网 影音先锋干女人逼 田中瞳无码电影 男人与漂亮的小母 在线观看 朴妮唛骚逼 欧美性感骚屄浪女 a片马干人 藤原绘里香电影 草草逼网址 www46xxxcn 美女草屄图 色老太人体艺网 男人的大阴茎插屄 北京违章车辆查询 魅影小说 滨岛真绪zhongzi 口比一级片 国产a片电影在线播放 小说我给男友刮毛 做爱视屏 茜木铃 开心四色播播网影视先锋 影音先锋欧美性爱人与兽 激情撸色天天草 插小嫚逼电影 人与动物三客优 日本阴部漫画美女邪恶图裸体护士美女露阴部 露屄大图 日韩炮图图片 欧美色图天天爱打炮 咪咕网一路向西国语 一级激情片 我爱看片av怎么打不开 偷拍自拍影先锋芳芳影院 性感黑丝高跟操逼 女性阴部摄影图片 自拍偷拍作爱群交 我把大姨给操了 好色a片 大鸡吧黄片 操逼和屁眼哪个爽 先生肉感授业八木梓 国产电影色图 色吧色吧图片 祖母乱伦片 强悍的老公搞了老婆又搞女儿影音先锋 美女战黑人大鸟五月 我被大鸡吧狂草骚穴 黄狗猪性交妇 我爱少女的逼 伦理苍井空百度影音 三姨妈的肥 国产成人电影有哪些 偷拍自拍劲爆欧美 公司机WWW日本黄色 无遮挡AV片 sRAV美女 WLJEEE163com 大鸡巴操骚12p 我穿着黑丝和哥哥干 jiujiucaojiujiucao 澳门赌场性交黄色免费视频 sifangplanxyz 欧美人兽交asianwwwzooasiancomwwwzootube8com 地狱少女新图 美女和黄鳝xxx doingit电影图片 香港性爱电影盟 av电影瑜伽 撸尔山乱伦AV 天天天天操极品好身材 黑人美女xxoo电影 极品太太 制服诱惑秘书贴吧 阿庆淫传公众号 国产迟丽丽合集 bbw热舞 下流番号 奥门红久久AV jhw04com 香港嫩穴 qingjunlu3最新网 激情做爱动画直播 老师大骚逼 成人激情a片干充气娃娃的视频 咪图屋推女郎 AV黄色电影天堂 aiai666top 空姐丝袜大乱11p 公公大鸡巴太大了视频 亚洲午夜Av电影 兰桂坊女主播 百度酷色酷 龙珠h绿帽 女同磨豆腐偷拍 超碰男人游戏 人妻武侠第1页 中国妹妹一级黄片 电影女同性恋嘴舔 色秀直播间 肏屄女人的叫声录音 干她成人2oP 五月婷婷狼 那里可以看国内女星裸照 狼友最爱操逼图片 野蛮部落的性生活 人体艺术摄影37cc 欧美色片大色站社区 欧美性爱喷 亚洲无码av欧美天堂网男人天堂 黑人黄色网站 小明看看主 人体艺术taosejiu 1024核工厂xp露出激情 WWWDDFULICOM 粉嫩白虎自慰 色色帝国PK视频 美国搔女 视频搜索在线国产 小明算你狠色 七夜郎在线观看 亚洲色图欧美色图自拍偷拍视频一区视频二区 pyp影yuan 我操网 tk天堂网 亚洲欧美射图片65zzzzcom 猪jb 另类AV南瓜下载 外国的人妖网站 腐女幼幼 影音先锋紧博资源 快撸网87 妈妈5我乱论 亚洲色~ 普通话在线超碰视频下载 世界大逼免费视频 先锋女优图片 搜索黄色男的操女人 久久女优播免费的 女明星被P成女优 成人三级图 肉欲儿媳妇 午夜大片厂 光棍电影手机观看小姨子 偷拍自拍乘人小说 丝袜3av网 Qvodp 国产女学生做爱电影 第四色haoav 催眠赵奕欢小说 色猫电影 另类性爱群交 影像先锋 美女自慰云点播 小姨子日B乱伦 伊人成人在线视频区 干表姐的大白屁股 禁室义母 a片丝袜那有a片看a片东京热a片q钬 香港经典av在线电影 嫩紧疼 亚洲av度 91骚资源视频免费观看 夜夜日夜夜拍hhh600com 欧美沙滩人体艺术图片wwwymrtnet 我给公公按摩 吉沢明涉av电影 恋夜秀晨间电影 1122ct 淫妻交换长篇连载 同事夫妇淫乱大浑战小说 kk原创yumi www774n 小伙干美国大乳美女magnet 狗鸡巴插骚穴小说 七草千岁改名微博 满18周岁可看爱爱色 呱呱下载 人妻诱惑乱伦电影 痴汉图书馆5小说 meinvsextv www444kkggcom AV天堂手机迅雷下载 干大姨子和二姨子 丝袜夫人 qingse 肥佬影音 经典乱伦性爱故事 日日毛资源站首页 美国美女裸体快播 午夜性交狂 meiguomeishaonvrentiyishu 妹妹被哥哥干出水 东莞扫黄女子图片 带毛裸照 zipailaobishipin 人体艺术阴部裸体 秘密 强奸酒醉大奶熟女无码全集在线播放 操岳母的大屄 国产少妇的阴毛 影音先锋肥熟老夫妻 女人潮吹视频 骚老师小琪迎新舞会 大奶女友 杨幂不雅视频种子百度贴吧 53kk 俄罗斯骚穴 国模 露逼图 李宗瑞78女友名单 二级片区视频观看 爸爸妈妈的淫荡性爱 成人电影去也 华我想操逼 色站图片看不了 嫖娼色 肛交lp 强奸乱伦肏屄 肥穴h图 岳母 奶子 妈妈是av女星 淫荡性感大波荡妇图片 欧美激情bt专区论坛 晚清四大奇案 日啖荔枝三百颗作者 三国防沉迷 印度新娘大结局 米琪人体艺术 夜夜射婷婷色在线视频 www555focom 台北聚色网 搞穴影音先锋 美吻影院超体 女人小穴很很日 老荡妇高跟丝袜足交 越南大胆室内人体艺术 翔田千里美图 樱由罗种子 美女自摸视频下载 香港美女模特被摸内逼 朴麦妮高清 亚寂寞美女用手指抠逼草莓 波多野结衣无码步兵在线 66女阴人体图片 吉吉影音最新无码专区 丝袜家庭教师种子 黄色网站名jane 52av路com 爱爱谷色导航网 阳具冰棒 3334kco 最大胆的人体摄影网 哥哥去在线乱伦文学 婶婶在果园里把我了 wagasetu 我去操妹 点色小说激 色和哥哥 吴清雅艳照 白丝护士ed2k 乱伦小说综合资源网 soso插插 性交抽插图 90后艳照门图片 高跟鞋97色 美女美鲍人体大胆色图 熟女性交bt 百度美女裸体艺术作品 铃木杏里高潮照片图 洋人曹比图 成人黄色图片电影网 幼幼女性性交 性感护士15p 白色天使电影 下载 带性视频qq 操熟女老师 亚洲人妻岛国线播放 虐待荡妇老婆 中国妈妈d视频 操操操成人图片 大阴户快操我 三级黄图片欣赏 jiusetengmuziluanlun p2002午夜福 肉丝一本道黑丝3p性爱 美丽叔母强奸乱伦 偷拍强奸轮奸美女短裙 日本女人啪啪网址 岛国调教magnet 大奶美女手机图片 变态强奸视频撸 美女与色男15p 巴西三级片大全 苍井空点影 草kkk 激情裸男体 东方AV在线岛国的搬运工下载 青青草日韩有码强奸视频 霞理沙无码AV磁力 哥哥射综合视频网 五月美女色色先锋 468rccm www色红尘com av母子相奸 成人黄色艳遇 亚洲爱爱动漫 干曰本av妇女 大奶美女家教激情性交 操丝袜嫩b 有声神话小说 小泽玛利亚迅雷 波多野结衣thunder 黄网色中色 www访问www www小沈阳网com 开心五月\u0027 五月天 酒色网 秘密花园 淫妹影院 黄黄黄电影 救国p2p 骚女窝影片 处女淫水乱流 少女迷奸视频 性感日本少妇 男人的极品通道 色系军团 恋爱操作团 撸撸看电影 柳州莫菁在线视频u 澳门娱银河成人影视 人人莫人人操 西瓜视频AV 欧美av自拍 偷拍 三级 狼人宝鸟视频下载 妹子漏阴道不打码视频 国产自拍在线不用 女牛学生破处視频 9877h漫 七色沙耶香番号 最新国产自拍 福利视频在线播放 青青草永久在线视频2 日本性虐电影百度云 pppd 481 snis939在线播放 疯狂性爱小视频精彩合集推荐 各种爆操 各种场所 各式美女 各种姿势 各式浪叫 各种美乳 谭晓彤脱黑奶罩视频 青青草伊人 国内外成人免费影视 日本18岁黄片 sese820 无码中文字幕在线播放2 - 百度 成语在线av 奇怪美发沙龙店2莉莉影院 1人妻在线a免费视频 259luxu在线播放 大香蕉综合伊人网在线影院 国模 在线视频 国产 同事 校园 在线 浪荡女同做爱 healthonline899 成人伦理 mp4 白合野 国产 迅雷 2018每日在线女优AV视频 佳AV国产AV自拍日韩AV视频 色系里番播放器 有没有在线看萝莉处女小视频的网站 高清免费视频任你搞伦理片 温泉伦理按摸无码 PRTD-003 时间停止美容院 计女影院 操大白逼baby操作粉红 ak影院手机版 91老司机sm 毛片基地成人体验区 dv1456 亚洲无限看片区图片 abp582 ed2k 57rrrr新域名 XX局长饭局上吃饱喝足叫来小情人当众人面骑坐身上啪啪 欲脱衣摸乳给众人看 超震撼 处女在线免费黄色视频 大香巨乳家政爱爱在线 吹潮野战 处女任务坉片 偷拍视频老夫妻爱爱 yibendaoshipinzhaixian 小川阿佐美再战 内人妻淫技 magnet 高老庄八戒影院 xxxooo日韩 日韩av12不卡超碰 逼的淫液 视频 黎明之前 ftp 成人电影片偷拍自拍 久久热自拍偷在线啪啪无码 2017狼人干一家人人 国产女主播理论在线 日本老黄视频网站 少妇偷拍点播在线 污色屋在线视频播放 狂插不射 08新神偷古惑仔刷钱BUG 俄罗斯强姦 在线播放 1901福利性爱 女人59岁阴部视频 国产小视频福利在线每天更新 教育网人体艺术 大屁股女神叫声可射技术太棒了 在线 极品口暴深喉先锋 操空姐比 坏木啪 手机电影分分钟操 jjzyjj11跳转页 d8视频永久视频精品在线 757午夜视频第28集 杉浦花音免费在线观看 学生自拍 香蕉视频看点app下载黄色片 2安徽庐江教师4P照片 快播人妻小说 国产福二代少妇做爱在线视频 不穿衣服的模特58 特黄韩国一级视频 四虎视频操逼小段 干日本妇妇高清 chineseloverhomemade304 av搜搜福利 apaa-186 magnet 885459com63影院 久久免费视怡红院看 波多野结衣妻ネトリ电影 草比视频福利视频 国人怡红院 超碰免费chaopeng 日本av播放器 48qa,c 超黄色裸体男女床上视频 PPPD-642 骑马乳交插乳抽插 JULIA 最后是厉害的 saob8 成人 inurl:xxx 阴扩 成八动漫AV在线 shawty siri自拍在线 成片免费观看大香蕉 草莓100社区视频 成人福利软件有哪些 直播啪啪啪视频在线 成人高清在线偷拍自拍视频网站 母女午夜快播 巨乳嫩穴影音先锋在线播放 IPZ-692 迅雷 哺乳期天天草夜夜夜啪啪啪视频在线 孩子放假前与熟女的最后一炮 操美女25p freex性日韩免费视频 rbd888磁力链接 欧美美人磁力 VR视频 亚洲无码 自拍偷拍 rdt在线伦理 日本伦理片 希崎杰西卡 被迫服从我的佐佐凌波在线观看 葵つか步兵在线 东方色图, 69堂在线视频 人人 abp356百度云 江媚玲三级大全 开心色导 大色哥网站 韩国短发电影磁力 美女在线福利伦理 亚洲 欧美 自拍在线 限制级福利视频第九影院 美女插鸡免得视频 泷泽萝拉第四部第三部我的邻居在线 色狼窝综合 美国少妇与水电工 火影忍者邪恶agc漫画纲手邪恶道 近亲乱伦视频 金卡戴珊视频门百度云 极虎彯院 日本 母乳 hd 视频 爆米花神马影院伦理片 国产偷拍自拍丝袜制服无码性交 璩美凤光碟完整版高清 teen萝莉 国产小电影kan1122 日日韩无码中文亚洲在线视频六区第6 黄瓜自卫视频激情 红番阔午夜影院 黄色激情视频网视频下载 捆梆绳模羽洁视频 香蕉视频页码 土豆成人影视 东方aⅴ免费观看p 国内主播夫妻啪啪自拍 国内网红主播自拍福利 孩子强奸美女软件 廿夜秀场面业影院 演员的诞生 ftp 迷奸系列番号 守望人妻魂 日本男同调教播放 porn三级 magnet 午夜丁香婷婷 裸卿女主播直播视频在线 ac制服 mp4 WWW_OSION4YOU_COM 90后人体艺术网 狠狠碰影音先锋 美女秘书加班被干 WWW_BBB4444_COM vv49情人网 WWW_XXX234_COM 黄色xxoo动态图 人与动物性交乱伦视频 屄彩图