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      September General Site Update | 9/27 MeFiCoFo Board Update

      They are coming to take me away to the funny farm
      February 20, 2025 8:43 AM   Subscribe

      Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is finally in a position to implement his dream goal of sending millions of Americans to "wellness farms".

      The Trump administration has long focused on relocating immigrants and American prisoners into domestic and international concentration camps and prisons, but now they are looking to expand it to much wider swath of American citizens with a variety of medical conditions, as well as African American children.

      Medical conditions under consideration include:
      • Chronic illness
      • Autism
      • ADHD, and medication including Adderall and Ritalin
      • Asthma
      • Obesity
      • Multiple sclerosis
      • Psoriasis
      • Mental illness such as depression and anxiety, and SSRI medication including Prozac and Zoloft
      RFK 's plan to make America healthy again? Round up people with mental health conditions in camps
      Robert F. Kennedy wants to replace standard psychological care with unpaid labor on "wellness farms"
      Instead of letting people have drugs that keep them healthy, Kennedy's "solution" looks very much like punishing them for perceived personal failures by putting people into labor camps, which he euphemistically calls "wellness farms." As Mother Jones reported in July, people would be relegated to these "farms," where they would be denied their prescription medications. They would also be barred from having cell phones, computers, or other means to contact the outside world. They would be put to work full-time, presumably for little or no pay, growing organic food. He claims this process would "reparent" supposedly broken people, again framing mental health issues as not a medical issue, but a personal failure.

      The racism underlying this vision of labor camps isn't just vibes, either. Kennedy has explicitly argued that Black kids need to "get reparented," ideally in a "rural area" where they are denied most contact with family and friends. "Treating" Black youth by making them do unpaid agricultural work isn't exactly subtle, as far as racist fantasies go.
      Donald Trump¡¯s Next Diversity Target: People With Disabilities
      The president¡¯s disdain for disabled people¡ªand obsession with genetic superiority¡ªharks back to a grim past.
      One month into his presidency, Trump has unleashed a government-wide attack on people with disabilities, from anti-diversity executive orders to proposed special-education rollbacks to threats to slash programs like Medicaid that are lifelines for disabled people across the country. If successful, these actions could have catastrophic consequences for millions of Americans, according to disability rights experts.
      ...
      The Trump administration¡¯s assault on government policies and programs that benefit disabled people is not just a scheme hatched in the bowels of The Heritage Foundation¡¯s Project 2025 anti-government boiler room¡ªalthough it is that, too. It¡¯s also the natural evolution of Trump¡¯s long-standing prejudice against people with disabilities. Trump¡¯s disdain for disabled people is well known, from mocking reporter Serge Kovaleski and insulting wounded veterans to reportedly telling a relative with a disabled son that ¡°maybe those kinds of people should just die.¡±
      How to pay for these farms? Kennedy had an answer. With money generated through a sales tax on cannabis products, Kennedy said, ¡°I¡¯m going to dedicate that revenue to creating wellness farms¡ªdrug rehabilitation farms, in rural areas all over this country,¡± he said. Other possibilities could include selling the organic produce and results of the free labor, and raising the debt ceiling by $4 trillion dollars or reallocate other governement funds could be a start.
      posted by rambling wanderlust (185 comments total) 36 users marked this as a favorite
       
      They'll never take me alive.
      posted by Faint of Butt at 8:45 AM on February 20 [46 favorites]


      Counting on my Danish weight loss shots to get my BMI below "obese" so RFK's son doesn't put me into a forced labor camp paid for by legal weed sales.

      America in 2025 is fucking bonkers.
      posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on February 20 [33 favorites]


      Jesus fuck these people.
      (Alas, mefi won¡¯t allow me to say what I sincerely believe needs to be done)
      posted by Thorzdad at 8:48 AM on February 20 [69 favorites]


      So how are they going to decide WHICH farm to send me to since I'm in several of these groups? Or do I get sent to the Punishment Farm for being a mental health therapist?
      posted by epj at 8:53 AM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      They don't check your party affiliation down at your local gun store.
      posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:53 AM on February 20 [29 favorites]


      forced labor camp paid for by legal weed sales

      This is the least of our problems, as far as this thread is concerned, but I absolutely would not bet on that, unless RFK MkII is gonna go head-to-head with his own drug czar.
      posted by mykescipark at 8:55 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      Yet.
      posted by star gentle uterus at 8:55 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      So just concentration camps with a thin veneer for the media.
      posted by nightfires at 8:59 AM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      My sister is very concerned about this, especially in regards to medication for my eldest niece's bipolar disorder. She's been incredibly stable for over a year now (there were a few hospitalizations prior) and this has been a boon for the family. Of course, my Trumper BIL thinks everything is going just fine and he would be happy to not have to have her on those meds.
      posted by Kitteh at 8:59 AM on February 20 [10 favorites]


      What veneer? This is pretty open in what it is
      posted by Dr. Twist at 9:01 AM on February 20 [23 favorites]


      I didn't see Kennedy even suggest that these would be mandatory. This isn't something I'd waste my time worrying about.

      And after worrying about him gutting preparations for bird flu and discouraging childhood vaccination, I don't have much extra time.
      posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:05 AM on February 20 [22 favorites]


      And it would also solve the problem of not having immigrants to do farm labor.
      posted by dlugoczaj at 9:06 AM on February 20 [11 favorites]


      Looks like we need to reopen the underground railroad.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 9:06 AM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      The thing I hate about shit like this is: it does not sound in the least plausible... but how would we even know anymore?
      posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:07 AM on February 20 [49 favorites]


      it does not sound in the least plausible

      Replace "wellness farm" with "concentration camp" and it becomes very plausible. Especially with the move Emil Bove is making to effectively defang the DOJ from prosecuting LEO and government officials because it might "interfere with their duties." All of the safeguards are being removed in rapid succession. We are being boiled alive.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 9:09 AM on February 20 [21 favorites]


      "Incarceration makes one well" is the new "Work makes one free"
      posted by CynicalKnight at 9:10 AM on February 20 [32 favorites]


      This isn't even scary. I mean, I have a mental health disability, well-documented in those SSA files Elon's boys downloaded. So I think I'm supposed to worry that I'll be a target, especially with the news about Vance investing in AcreTrader--an app that helps snap up distressed agricultural properties. But this is stupid to the point that I simply refuse to believe it, until someone actually gets shipped to a literal, truly-existing farm.

      This is where fascism and capitalism butt heads. Big Pharma spent a lot of money in the last election. They desire returns on that investment. RFK is going to bend to their pressure.

      I'm not saying stupid, harmful things won't happen. Clearly they will. But--and I say this as a person with a bottle of Ativan six inches away from me at all times, I say this as a person who is very mentally ill--I don't believe this farm thing. I think it's bullshit.
      posted by mittens at 9:11 AM on February 20 [41 favorites]


      I didn't see Kennedy even suggest that these would be mandatory. This isn't something I'd waste my time worrying about. And after worrying about him gutting preparations for bird flu and discouraging childhood vaccination, I don't have much extra time

      I've always adhered to Matthew 6:34, but never more so than now:
      Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
      All I'll say is that if they're going to round up all us fatties, they better start building the capacity now. There are a lot of us.
      posted by Lemkin at 9:12 AM on February 20 [11 favorites]


      I think it's extremely plausible. Private prison farms where people are disappeared to, like those youth camps. The private prisons already exist. Building them and running is an industry. Big round ups? Probably not. A steady trickle of people scooped up while ordering a refill or grabbed at home while being on a list of those with X condition? Yeah.
      posted by Slackermagee at 9:12 AM on February 20 [10 favorites]


      If this comes to pass, I am taking up whatever arms I can gather and dieing at the federal building downtown. If you're not there with me, for shame.
      posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:14 AM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      I am begging everyone not to post shit that the company named after the all seeing fantasy eye will scoop up for their friends in the administration.
      posted by Slackermagee at 9:15 AM on February 20 [17 favorites]


      And before you ask, "who are you attacking?"

      The answer: anyone who is there.
      posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:16 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      Fuck em, slackermagee
      posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:17 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      It would be kinda funny if it wasn't mandatory, they actually build these camps all over the country and nobody ever checked themselves into one. Somehow I'm guessing it will be 'of your own free will' like the green card holding immigrants who are being held indefinitely until they voluntarily forfeit their legal status.
      ¡°I thought they were going to be targeting criminals. No one mentioned during the campaigning of Donald Trump that residents ¡­ legal residents ¡­ were going to have to go through this,¡± she said. Her husband, who came to the country legally in 1999 and has a green card, went to an immigration office in San Francisco for a check-in in late January and still hasn¡¯t come home, she said.
      ...
      Jacuinde doesn¡¯t show up in a database of people being detained by ICE. Pe?a said he was told he was not free to leave the immigration office and that agents were holding him to pressure him to sign a voluntary removal form. The family has contacted dozens of attorneys but hasn¡¯t been able to secure legal representation, she said.
      posted by rambling wanderlust at 9:18 AM on February 20 [25 favorites]


      "Arbeit macht gesund" will look nice over the front gates.
      posted by delfin at 9:20 AM on February 20 [20 favorites]


      Damn, you gotta hand it to them, they are speed running the Nazi thing SO fast. I'm stunned at the speed in which they are fucking up EVERYTHING. King Trump and Vizier Musk, gotta hand it to them (argh, insert dril bit here).

      Thank got we have such a potent opposition party, did you see they way they all stood up for AOC when that Gestapo head Holman promised to put her in prison? I've never been prou..... wait, I'm told they did fuck all and left her in the wind.

      Each of these horrendous events, at some point there has to be a breaking point right? I think we are living through a revolution, of the worst kind. Fucking Camps? Really fucking concentration camps?
      posted by WatTylerJr at 9:22 AM on February 20 [18 favorites]


      I don't even know what's possible anymore, but my gut says that if RFK really tries to make this a thing with all of the resultant damage it would do to big pharma and the healthcare industry, he's going to get pulled into a long boardroom where the real-life equivalent of Ned Beatty in Network is going to scream at him that it is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet and that he has meddled with the primal forces of nature and must atone.
      posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:23 AM on February 20 [17 favorites]


      Of course, rounding up EVERYONE with above conditions is logistically nearly impossible. What I do think is possible is the option to buy your way out of said camps as another form of grift, and those who can't they would prefer to be working as slave labor.
      posted by hairless ape at 9:23 AM on February 20 [19 favorites]


      They're not locking people up for crimes, oh, no, but if you rear-end somebody and a cop comes out to take information for a report for insurance and you're on The List for medicines that show you're not healthy enough to be a safe driver, they're not arresting you, you're being taken for evaluation and assignment to a non-judicial, extralegal estate so you can get well.
      posted by AzraelBrown at 9:24 AM on February 20 [26 favorites]


      It's true Secretary Brainworm hasn't openly said his Wellness Farms will be mandetory. But come on, we all know that's how this shit goes down.

      And obviously this won't apply to Republicans and rich people who are on medication, of course not. It'll be something applied first to people Liberals will feel OK with trying to "treat". Like Black people accused of violent crimes. That's fine right? They'll get help, right?

      And then it'll expand.
      posted by sotonohito at 9:24 AM on February 20 [21 favorites]


      Gradually, then suddenly.
      posted by AlSweigart at 9:25 AM on February 20 [13 favorites]


      It's not fucking funny.

      I'm parent to a disabled kid. IDEA, inclusion, federal funding for disability services, are all under threat. Our disabled kids will assuredly suffer, some in ways that make all the difference.

      Stop cackling and start agitating. Call your rep. Get out in the streets. Fight.
      posted by splitpeasoup at 9:30 AM on February 20 [56 favorites]


      This is 2025 in a nutshell, asking yourself almost daily...

      Is this reckless, stupid idea:
      a) definitely happening
      b) just part of them flooding the zone with shit
      c) a trial balloon to see if future terrible shit can be normalized in advance
      ?
      posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:30 AM on February 20 [68 favorites]


      I say this as a person who is very mentally ill--I don't believe this farm thing. I think it's bullshit.

      I thought W. was going to invoke the Emergency Powers Act and put dissidents in camps. Having been wrong about that, I feel a responsibility to apply the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" principle going forward.

      That said, I don't think we can confidently rule out anything. In January 1933, cramming people into boxcars bound for Poland seemed far-fetched too. An ideology of hate combined with untrammeled power is a very dangerous cocktail.
      posted by Lemkin at 9:30 AM on February 20 [13 favorites]


      I got my ADHD diagnosis three days ago, and now I am going to be disappeared? Fuck these Republicans so much: the idea that people who are trying to fix what ails them makes them A Problem is SO BACKWARDS.

      And I just read that "anywhere from 8% to 10% of Americans are currently taking GLP-1s" like Ozempic. No way they would snatch a tenth of the population: they won't even make good fieldhands!
      posted by wenestvedt at 9:35 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      It's not fucking funny.

      I don't think anyone (or at least not the majority of us) is saying this is literally funny. Gallows humor doesn't actually require a person to think swinging from a noose is a laugh riot.

      I have a kid with ADHD, my wife and I are both technically obese, and my kid's BFF is in in-patient mental health care right now. I promise you I don't think this is a knee-slapper.

      It's a little wild that putting off a formal autism diagnosis is maybe going to be some of the finest dumb luck procrastination ever had me stumble upon.
      posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:35 AM on February 20 [24 favorites]


      Big Pharma spent a lot of money in the last election. They desire returns on that investment.

      They are due to get it, namely being freed from the shackles of evidence-based medicine. Why spend millions p-hacking when you can simply do away with statistics altogether? I'm sure boardrooms would love nothing more than to be rid of the FDA. They already have a model for regulation in the supplement industry. Many have already pointed out we're back to the gilded age again, so it makes sense we'd be redoing the 19th century of quackery as default again.

      Now quit yer yappin' and help me load up the truck with these bottles of Mefi & Sons patented Revitalizing Tonic!

      Cocaine. We're selling cocaine.
      posted by wanderlost at 9:39 AM on February 20 [15 favorites]


      Oddly enough, I spent most of high school in a place much like RFK envisions, though we most did forestry and landscaping type work. If you were really bad, they sent you to the ranch where you¡¯d have livestock duties.
      ?
      So, probably a lot less vegetables than he would want.
      posted by funkaspuck at 9:42 AM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      Perhaps we call agree that Cheryl Hines should have to live the rest of her life as a pariah noisily jeered at in public wherever she appears.
      posted by Lemkin at 9:44 AM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      Like a Dude ranch, right?
      posted by Czjewel at 9:46 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      Counting on my Danish weight loss shots to get my BMI below "obese" so RFK's son doesn't put me into a forced labor camp paid for by legal weed sales.

      a. he's going to target Ozempic, etc for banning.
      b. I expect before summer that state's that have legal sales will see the Feds raiding places that sell weed on a daily basis.
      posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:51 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      To add to the dismantling of health things (not negating that or the civil liberties issues here) it would also be great if the US could share its influenza data so the shots we get are effective. Although who knows, maybe that's the goal.
      posted by warriorqueen at 9:53 AM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      So RFKjr proposes to pay for drug rehabilitation treatment on a farm using funds generated from cannabis sales? How does that even work? Or is he just saying only people on heroin and meth need to be at these farms? When I was in rehab, we had our phones taken away and had no contact with the outside world except for one phone call a week for 10 minutes, so that is nothing new. Not the point here, but the current system of rehabilitation from drug use is an abysmal mess, yet highly profitable. Plus taking people off of prescription medications is going to get some pushback from pharmaceutical companies. I really can¡¯t see this happening as a full scale measure to treat drug addiction given how much money is generated from current the current rehab industry.

      Another thing, there were people in rehab that were recovering from ketamine addiction, so does that mean Elon will be put into one of these camps too?
      posted by waving at 9:53 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      Autistic, adhd, gender dysphoria (oh trust me that'll be slapped on), obese, probably being gay will be tagged in, I got em all!

      Granted my response as a bitter 40 year old is 'lets roll!'. Don't got much left, so my field of fucks is barren, and punching a nazi on my way out would be satisfying
      posted by AngelWuff at 9:54 AM on February 20 [10 favorites]


      For my own mental health I am choosing to believe this won't happen, but for no real reason, because it can. Sure, it would not be practical to try to forcibly send every mentally ill or addicted person to a wellness camp. But the practical issues, and presumed drug company resistance, fall away if you just send a manageable number of people, who can be pretty precisely targeted. The criminal justice system could start diverting people to such camps (honestly not even obvious that it's worse than some of our existing private prisons), more frighteningly the juvenile justice system could do the same. It's hard to see how anyone could be forced to go outside of being accused of a crime, but you could strip federal funding for all alternatives, or make it a prerequisite for federal benefits or something. So could it happen at scale, no. Could it happen to a lot of people, yes.
      posted by prefpara at 9:54 AM on February 20 [11 favorites]


      I suspect the suicide rates will go way up. Perhaps that is their point.

      I'll be seeing you in the camps. Thanks, old job, for fucking me up enough to end up on the target list.

      Honestly, the only possible saving anything is how Big Pharma may actually try to object to losing all of that sweet, sweet money.
      posted by jenfullmoon at 9:56 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      Stop cackling and start agitating.

      When we spend our scarce focus agitating against the dumb idea that someone threw out that was never going to happen, we¡¯re wasting the opportunity to agitate against the real shit going down right now.

      I am wicked ADHD (Ritalin since I was 5), Bipolar II and a wicked mood disregulation. My older son has most of my issues, only more-so, and my younger son is even more ADHD and the difference between a 4.0 and failing out of classes is a daily dose of Adderall. My wife requires a daily SSRI to keep severe anxiety at bay.

      All that I still care more about ICE harassing people who have little in common with me, because one is a hypothetical and one is very, very real.

      Y¡¯all, this is part of the plan. Flood the zone with as many crazy ideas and cause people to either despair and give up fighting or trip over themselves chasing ghosts.
      posted by ifatfirstyoudontsucceed at 10:00 AM on February 20 [27 favorites]


      And I just read that "anywhere from 8% to 10% of Americans are currently taking GLP-1s" like Ozempic. No way they would snatch a tenth of the population: they won't even make good fieldhands!

      I have little doubt that Stephen Miller types are aware of this obvious truth -- that you can't simply drop random people into de facto slave labor conditions and expect anything productive to come out of it, nor can 20-30 million people (including an awful lot of red staters) all get plucked from their homes without more than a bit of outcry. Just like how every noncompliant journalist, judge, protester, shitposter and such won't have a one-way ticket to Gitmo.

      The mere existence of two or three of these camps and "the worst of the worst" being sent there for "rehabilitation" -- surely, everyday Americans have nothing to fear, and can't complain about the truly dangerous people getting the help that they need, right? -- can act as sanewashing, as well as a message to those not on the Trump Train -- conform, or you might be made into an example for others, too.
      posted by delfin at 10:02 AM on February 20 [9 favorites]


      This is just flooding the zone nonsense, yeah. The tangible thing they may do is make it much harder to get ADHD stimulants or try to ban medication for under 18. Perhaps try to revoke some medications clearance.

      But the pharmaceutical lobby is quite potent and the GOP loves money and grift above all so it probably won¡¯t be much except more inconvenience and of course pain for low income people (as is natural for the gop).

      I have ADHD and I do wish my doctor hadn¡¯t put me on an SSRI because trying to wean off it even at a low initial dose has been a nightmare¡­ so I¡¯m at 3 of the main categories above. Being shipped off to a camp for being a 41 year old dude with adhd and anxiety would be weird.
      posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:06 AM on February 20 [9 favorites]


      Following the horrors of WWI, people were sure that would never happen again ("The war to end all wars.")

      Thirty years later, following the horrors of WWII, people were saying that concentration camps couldn't happen here, ignoring the Japanese Americans in internment camps.

      We learn nothing from the mistakes of the past. These camps may not happen here, but that may be due more to incompetence and corruption rather than lack of will.
      posted by tommasz at 10:07 AM on February 20 [16 favorites]


      you can't simply drop random people into de facto slave labor conditions and expect anything productive to come out of it

      This has been happening in the US, which has the fifth highest incarceration rate (reported) in the world, for decades:

      CIO article from 2010: Prison Labor: Outsourcing's Best Kept Secret
      ACLU's Captive Labour report
      Prisoners in the US are part of a hidden workforce linked to hundreds of popular food brands (AP News)
      posted by warriorqueen at 10:09 AM on February 20 [24 favorites]


      At Guantanamo?
      posted by theora55 at 10:10 AM on February 20 [1 favorite]


      This, naturally, is just so stupid. Tax revenue from Cannabis, you say? does this mean it will be rescheduled and legalized on a federal level? That will be interesting.
      I'm sure big pharma will have a bit to say about taking away its cash cow antidepressant, adhd and anxiety meds as well.
      The only thing of his that I agree with is the elimination of direct to consumer advertising of prescription meds. Tell me about how expensive my meds have to be when you're not buying ad space during the superbowl thanks.
      posted by OHenryPacey at 10:15 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      Big Pharma spent a lot of money in the last election. They desire returns on that investment. RFK is going to bend to their pressure.
      Where "pressure" = many many millions of delicious bribe dollars. Pharma spent money and will happily spend more money. SSRIs, ADHD meds et al. are not going anywhere. SSRIs, ADHD meds et al. for poor people via government assistance? Probably going to be harder and more painful to acquire. But who knows, even those might stay relatively available because there's probably some way pharma gets subsidies from that, too.

      One thing's for sure, whether or not they actually succeed in turning one of those horrible, exploitative youth bootcamps out in Utah into The First National Tom Cruise Center for Mental Health Through Agriculture and Jesus Christ, all the fear and uncertainty this is causing is going to be very costly. NoBoDy outside the 1% and probably the .001% is going to skate through the plague of Trump without picking up some shrapnel from the ongoing blitzkrieg on the US economy.
      posted by Don Pepino at 10:16 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      We hear constantly about RFK Jr.'s anti-vax schtick, but he's just as obsessed with stamping out SSRIs. He's as serious as Scientology about the evils of psychiatry.
      posted by kozad at 10:17 AM on February 20 [18 favorites]


      This seems far more standard crunchy bullshit and far less scary than the framing is making it out to be.
      posted by atoxyl at 10:21 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      I do think Big Pharma will have more sway than RFK in these things, due to the colossal amount of money that industry has, but that doesn't mean Big Pharma won't create in collaboration massive hoops for ordinary people to get through just to get their meds.
      posted by Kitteh at 10:21 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      I have little doubt that Stephen Miller types are aware of this obvious truth -- that you can't simply drop random people into de facto slave labor conditions and expect anything productive to come out of it

      That's just you failing to think like a eugenicist.

      You need to bear in mind that these screwheads think of themselves as superior. Stable geniuses, even.
      posted by flabdablet at 10:23 AM on February 20 [10 favorites]


      (Good title, btw)
      posted by Going To Maine at 10:24 AM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      i have the feeling this is what they're planning on doing to solve the homeless problem - and any other problems they feel are unsightly and inconvenient enough

      it won't solve anything but it will make things look nicer and serve as a warning to the rest of us
      posted by pyramid termite at 10:27 AM on February 20 [13 favorites]


      Failing to take this seriously because it is "just so stupid" is exactly how Trump got elected the first time around.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 10:28 AM on February 20 [55 favorites]


      The "good thing" about this is that they have been public about their intentions, which will make it much harder to actually implement since it isn't being done in secret.(Though I do wonder what they are doing and not talking about in public, all of that training to avoid FOIA has to be used for something.)

      People forget the incredible banality and absolutely stupid ways humans can 'other' people, or quickly change their POV to align with crazy beliefs... Keep in mind this wasn't originally a part of Trump's campaign, but an alignment when RFK Jr was still running for president separately. I didn't link to the White House's Executive Order related to this, but it is out there if you want to read it.

      Given how the largest and most powerful corporations are bending over backwards to the administration, I wouldn't expect "Big Pharma" to swoop in and save us. There are many ways to pay them off or keep them in line.

      We can push back against it, and the sooner the better. The bad thing is the number of people who want to believe in "American Exceptionalism" and that "it can't happen here!" or that the sheer stupidity of it means it can't happen - even Fox News is taking these statements seriously enough to report on them. I do think that what is being done to immigrants and prisoners is a higher priority (both from the GOP's side as well as those who oppose it), but there is clearly a lot of synergy between these different projects.
      posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:29 AM on February 20 [25 favorites]


      I'm already tired of this. Under Biden, everyone's so tolerant¡ªchoose whichever gender you want, don't say forbidden words, etc. Now Trump is going to extremes, and I don't understand why we have to do this, just to keep us in a constant state of tension.
      posted by vitospit at 10:31 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      Going to just put it out there again that this is entirely consistent with a generalized drive to reduce the population, and that the Washington Post, New York Times et al. are busy as little bees sanewashing all of it.

      I don't think we have any way to reasonably anticipate what will actually happen with regard to off-kilter proposals like this. I do maintain that it is significantly easier to destroy than to build. The more that plans like this require meaningful logistics and management, the less likely they are to happen. However, There will almost certainly be *some* camps of some sort or another - it just goes with the personality type. And yes, being a high-profile (ie. particularly successful) agitator against the fascist goon squad will probably earn you a quick one-way ticket to the nearest one, somewhat regardless of who you are.

      One note about Ozempic, etc - the administration has already floated a 25% tariff on all pharma. That's obviously insane, but "insane" is well in keeping with the program so far.

      And also just to say it again (it won't be the last time, I am sure). I focus on the tone of coverage by the NYT and WSJ because to the extent that there are grumblings of discontent from pharma and insurance industry execs, that is where we will see it first. Not in direct coverage, but in the vibe. As long as that remains just so, sanguine and sane-washing, you can assume this is all fine with the executive class.
      posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 10:44 AM on February 20 [17 favorites]


      This is 2025 in a nutshell, asking yourself almost daily...

      Is this reckless, stupid idea:
      a) definitely happening
      b) just part of them flooding the zone with shit
      c) a trial balloon to see if future terrible shit can be normalized in advance


      All three can be true at the same time.
      posted by slogger at 10:49 AM on February 20 [21 favorites]


      but boy howdy I can't wait to see how all the Dr*mp voters react when they get rounded up amirite

      edit:sarcasm
      posted by slogger at 10:51 AM on February 20


      Failing to take this seriously because it is "just so stupid" is exactly how Trump got elected the first time around.

      I am taking it seriously. Other people are extrapolating wildly!

      One can squint and see ¡°mandatory¡± reading that he¡¯s proposing it as a diversion program. But I am completely willing to bet that if this goes anywhere it will end up at about the same level of exploitative that the rehab industry already is (which, to be clear, is ¡°definitely exploitative¡±) and that we¡¯ll mostly just keep throwing homeless people in regular ol¡¯ jail.

      No shit it¡¯s important not to underestimate this administration, but it is in fact possible to evaluate these things without turning into Alex Jones.
      posted by atoxyl at 10:51 AM on February 20 [11 favorites]


      Even given my above statement, I still want to offer a warning. If someone suggests an extreme, terrible policy, there can be a certain sense of relief when a less extreme, less terrible policy goes into place instead. We need to fight that tendency toward relief. It's normalization and othering.

      If you say "oh, whew, on further reflection, it won't be me going to the farm," then you have to interrogate yourself--in that moment of relief, who didn't I care about going to the farm?

      If you say "well they're probably only coming for a certain class of medications," it's important to think about the people who absolutely need them to keep a normal life going.

      It's such a dangerous thing. Any reaction that says, "At least I'm safe," should be an invitation to open ourselves to a horrified and enraged empathy.
      posted by mittens at 10:56 AM on February 20 [54 favorites]


      No shit it¡¯s important not to underestimate this administration, but it is in fact possible to evaluate these things without turning into Alex Jones.

      Given that Project 2025 is going ahead pretty much verbatim, I don't think taking RFK at his word is akin to becoming a foamy-mouthed conspiracy theorist.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 10:58 AM on February 20 [28 favorites]


      Failing to take this seriously because it is "just so stupid" is exactly how Trump got elected the first time around.

      I wrote the line about stupidity, and I find it a stretch indeed to infer that I'm not taking this seriously. I work in public health ffs and this bs is gonna have a seriously long tail. The fact is the republicans view the stupidity of the american voting public to be a feature and not a bug, and totally count on the profound lack of critical thinking to help them in this.
      posted by OHenryPacey at 11:00 AM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      What veneer? This is pretty open in what it is

      We are smoking the veneer
      posted by chavenet at 11:02 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      I spent many years working in the disability field and I think that the end goal here is to provide legal protection for parents who want to sent their kids out for "rehabilitation". Like the elan school (mefi previously).

      It's part of the whole 'parents rights' the fundamentalists are fighting for.

      The 'right' to impose their will, however insane or harmful, on people who just happen to be their children. The right to send their problem child off into the wilderness to magically stop being gay or autistic. The right to reject your childs' medical needs.
      posted by zenon at 11:03 AM on February 20 [30 favorites]


      1000% to what mittens just said above. The moving of the Overton window, and the ease we slide into the "it wasn't so bad after all" is one of the things that keeps me up at night about this all.

      Plus all of these things clearly interlock in what they want to do all of these people: the homeless, LGBTQIA+ people, immigrants, protesters, prisoners, people with chronic conditions, political opposition and on and on and on.
      posted by rambling wanderlust at 11:05 AM on February 20 [19 favorites]


      I don't think taking RFK at his word is akin to becoming a foamy-mouthed conspiracy theorist.

      I am, that¡¯s the point! Nobody actually suggested the extreme version here, he suggested the merely stupid version - it¡¯s rich brainworms recovering addict wellness guy whose notion of addiction treatment is an agrarian retreat saying that everybody should be able to go to an agrarian retreat! Saying ¡°that¡¯s a stupid idea and in fact these kinds of places are often creepy and abusive and shouldn¡¯t be endorsed or supported by the government¡± (like a lot of ¡°recovery¡± stuff) would not be foamy conspiracist territory.

      Immediately running with ¡°he said he plans to put undesirables in hard labor camps¡± is.
      posted by atoxyl at 11:06 AM on February 20 [7 favorites]


      i have the feeling this is what they're planning on doing to solve the homeless problem - and any other problems they feel are unsightly and inconvenient enough

      Trump has already said that the 'tents on DC's magnificent lawns' are not what 'foreign leaders want to see when they visit the White House'.
      posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:10 AM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      This seems far more standard crunchy bullshit and far less scary than the framing is making it out to be.

      Crunchy bullshit is easily dismissed because it's fringe beliefs held by people with no serious political power. When it's being held by people with serious political power, it's a lot less easy to dismiss.
      posted by mightygodking at 11:14 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      @Thorzdad: right there with ya, man.

      And meanwhile, the elected representatives of the people stand by with their thumbs up their Congressional asses.
      posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:14 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      And if that¡¯s not Alex Jones enough for you we¡¯ve got somebody proposing that it¡¯s part of a depopulation plot!

      This place gets less and less useful as a venue to have serious discussions about politics and that sucks because it¡¯s true that politics is more serious than ever in my lifetime.
      posted by atoxyl at 11:21 AM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      RFK talked explicitly about sending Black children there to be reparented. What do you make of that?
      posted by grumpybear69 at 11:22 AM on February 20 [12 favorites]


      Not a big deal for me- I¡¯ll die of seizures on day 1 at the camp.
      posted by Devils Rancher at 11:22 AM on February 20 [1 favorite]


      Immediately running with ¡°he said he plans to put undesirables in hard labor camps¡± is.

      Remember death panels? I feel no obligation to give RFK the benefit of the doubt because there's just no point. If he's dumb enough to talk about his stupid idea in language that so easily conjures images of work camps...that's on him. Better people have had their political careers completely ruined by the slightest phrase being subject to a bad faith interpretation and I don't see any reason why RFK should be treated any differently. Optics matter.
      posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:22 AM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      Saying ¡°that¡¯s a stupid idea and in fact these kinds of places are often creepy and abusive and shouldn¡¯t be endorsed or supported by the government¡± (like a lot of ¡°recovery¡± stuff) would not be foamy conspiracist territory.

      Immediately running with ¡°he said he plans to put undesirables in hard labor camps¡± is.


      Yes, that is very likely not RFK Jr's intention. However, putting undesirables in hard labor camps is what the Project 2025 people want, and they are also a part of this administration. It's not hard to imagine how this could be co-opted in order to achieve those aims, regardless of what RFK Jr himself intended.
      posted by nightfires at 11:29 AM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      Remember death panels? I feel no obligation to give RFK the benefit of the doubt because there's just no point. If he's dumb enough to talk about his stupid idea in language that so easily conjures images of work camps...that's on him.

      Sorry, didn¡¯t know this was the propaganda workshop thread. I¡¯ll admit that having 4chan pumping out this stuff seems to be working for the right but it¡¯s not really what I signed up for here.
      posted by atoxyl at 11:33 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      Can we at least put up some workplace safety posters? ¡°Caution: do not believe.¡±
      posted by atoxyl at 11:35 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      I've been making things awkward/uncomfortable at work by repeatedly referencing the difficult decision to "leave now or wait until the camps open". I was thinking mainly about the camps that would be required for their promised mass deportations and was not at all thinking about these alleged "wellness" camps. I guess we'll have to wait and see which ones they start filling up first.
      posted by mhum at 11:39 AM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      It's not hard to imagine how this could be co-opted in order to achieve those aims

      Given the way that Trump has acted over the years, it¡¯s not hard to imagine that there¡¯s a lizard person under his ill-fitting human suit. How much time should we spend on that concept?

      The federal government *is* rounding people up right now and putting them in detention centers. That¡¯s real. That¡¯s now.

      Instead of spending our time running around like the last moments of Pompeii, terrified about the fatties and crazies getting sent to work farms (in which case, I¡¯m double fucked), we focus on the real now shit so the work farms never happen.
      posted by ifatfirstyoudontsucceed at 11:52 AM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      Yeah they¡¯re putting out ¡°deportation ASMR¡± videos, having a real laugh with it, I¡¯m pretty sure I know which camps are opening first.

      I promise I never told anybody that ¡°Trump is going to put a bunch of open white supremacist nerds and cops in the government¡± was a wild extrapolation, because it was a very reasonable extrapolation, and it is possible to tell the difference.
      posted by atoxyl at 12:01 PM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      This administration is the living embodiment of Alex Jones, but dumber by an order of magnitude and much more crass and vindictive.

      Making agencies like OSHA and the NSA delete anything containing words including "privilege," "bias," and "inclusion."
      Firing the people in charge of nuclear weapons safety, and then not knowing how to contact them.
      Firing the people in charge of bird flu research, and then not knowing how to contact them.
      Hiring young CSA hosting, cyber criminal fascists to destroy the US government via the worst security breach in US history.

      The brazenness and jaw-dropping stupidity of every day's news it makes it hard to talk about without sounding crazy. But here we are, and it is causing real harm, no matter how insanely brainless their reasoning is.
      posted by rambling wanderlust at 12:02 PM on February 20 [17 favorites]


      As Maya Angelou put it, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

      The people in Trump's orbit and placed at the levers of power by him have shown us who they are about 10,000 times by now.

      Will this plan be implemented exactly like it's being laid out? I doubt it, no plan survives the field after all.

      Will something incredibly fucked up that has its origins in this plan happen? I believe so, with all my heart.

      So I'm going to refrain from telling any member of any group that is in the crosshairs of this administration to stop over-reacting or to not worry because the logistics would never work out or that this thing is what will finally drive the press and the Democrats to resist more forcefully. I mean, my children and I are in the crosshairs ourselves (like many people here, we qualify in several categories), and I'm starting to think seriously about how we can get the fuck out of this country or go off grid. Even in the 1st Trump administration I didn't feel that way.

      But now that he's on a revenge tour and has installed drug-addled/vindictive/greedy people in positions of immense power, this entire country is very much not a safe space. And I don't fault anyone else for feeling that way and starting to make moves.
      posted by lord_wolf at 12:02 PM on February 20 [28 favorites]


      This place gets less and less useful as a venue to have serious discussions about politics and that sucks because it¡¯s true that politics is more serious than ever in my lifetime.

      For real. The framing of this post is promoting a conspiracy theory as "truth" and putting words in RFK's mouth - which not only is not required (what he actually does say is bad enough!), but is also pernicious - you don't have to flood the zone on their behalf!
      posted by coffeecat at 12:14 PM on February 20 [15 favorites]


      This thread seems very unhealthy from a mental health standpoint. But I guess life is at the moment as well so YMMV.
      posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:27 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]


      I have family in west Texas, where the largest industries 17 years ago were oil and prisons, many private. It says something when prisons can be described as an industry. My cousin is on the other side of it, working with foster kids.

      I wonder how many of them are starting organic farms.
      posted by childofTethys at 12:37 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      I can see this absolutely working on some scale. I mean, it's being modeled after programs that already exist. Which, btw, the outcomes of those places need to be investigated thoroughly, because if these MAGA turds think they're good, they're almost certainly corrupt and abusive programs.

      This would absolutely be used by individual judges who are on board. It's an easy fit for violent offenders--jail or The Fat/Mentally Ill farm--but the issue others have pointed out above is a lot of those judges would do the same for minor violations, like car accidents or jay walking.
      posted by zardoz at 12:39 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      RFK Jr. is a goon. We can take this as read. Whatever he means (to the extent any of the gibberish that falls out of his mouth can mean anything) when he talks he probably doesn't actually want forced labor camps on a personal level.

      That absolutely doesn't matter. The guy is a goon and will always be one. Thats what they hired him for. And his dumbfuck ideas have enough plausible deniability to get the camel's nose under the tent.
      posted by East14thTaco at 12:54 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      RFKjr, being a True Believer, wants what he wants and will try and make it happen because he's a True Believer. The rest of them will follow the pork-scented grift all the way to the bank. They may even succeed at building something, for hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts and subcontracts. Being someone who'd be multi-categoried and shipped off, this is the story I'm telling myself is the likely outcome because I gotta keep waking up every day and doing stuff like breathing and going to work.
      posted by ApathyGirl at 12:57 PM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      How does Big Pharma profit? Well, you want to avoid the camps then you better be on a drug regimen that makes sure that you are alright like Ozempic or whatever expensive thing that will be listed to get you out of literal jail.
      posted by jadepearl at 1:01 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]


      Going to just put it out there again that this is entirely consistent with a generalized drive to reduce the population

      Holy fuck.

      I keep saying "every accusation is a confession" and then missing some of the bigger and more essential of their confessions.

      They scream daily about how the evil left wants to kill people to reduce the population, of fucking course it means they intend to kill people to reduce the population.

      Obviously they mean a specific subset of people: Black people, disabled people, LGBT people, and anyone who won't fall into line. Cis het white Christian conservative men are fine.
      posted by sotonohito at 1:06 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      After they get away with stealing black kids they will come for kids in families with same sex parents. My 18 month old is asleep in my lap right now and I¡¯m googling what countries to escape to. Fucking Christ.
      posted by BuddhaInABucket at 1:14 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]


      I think the best kind of comments are when someone tells people who are clearly targets of this Admin that they are foaming at the mouth conspiracy addled morons because they dont subscribed exactly to someone's dispassionately determined 'right and only answer', especially when many of the 'conspiracy addled' are: 1) very scared for themselves, their families, friends and communities; 2) see what the fuck is going on with Trumpism; and 3) very well able to asses the motives of the true believers' drunk on power plans by themselves.

      Cherry on top for then following up with a 'this place is useless cause of all you who dont immediately agree with that commenter's right and only answer'.

      Always warm and fuzzy to be told to STFU or you're a moron. Obv. thats what Metafilter is all about.
      posted by WatTylerJr at 1:15 PM on February 20 [20 favorites]


      If you have expressed annoyance at the heavy-footed framing of this proposal within this thread, but not at the suggestion that Black children would benefit from "reparenting," think how these reflexes might be better calibrated.

      I brought this up elsewhere a few days ago in the primary context of a pattern I have been railing on for years. Wholesome language, unexamined, is so consistently ripe to wrap nefarious shit in and have it defended by people who overprioritize how things look on their surface, the labels. Predators in hippy circles have been exploiting this since ever.

      Immediately met with "Organic farming is good actually" and "Pharma is bad." The "I don't see this happening" came a little later.

      I'm aware that this regime is ableist and eugenicist. I'm aware that mass deportations would mean a deficit of farm workers. I'm aware of the 13th amendment loophole. I'm aware that contemporary organic farming has its origins in fascism. I'm aware that even in progressive circles, the idea of consent is often undervalued and ideas that involve authoritative pressures toward "bettering" society go unchallenged a lot a lot. These are the ingredients that underpin my alert on this issue.

      I don't need people to say, OH WOW THIS IS HAPPENING TODAY.
      I need people to say, I see what this would mean and how they would sell it and I am ready to recognize signs of escalation and I am ready to fight.
      posted by droomoord at 1:22 PM on February 20 [22 favorites]


      Great job, voters who couldn't bear to sacrifice their 'principles' about Gaza!
      posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:36 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      Great job, voters who couldn't bear to sacrifice their 'principles' about Gaza!

      SAY THE LINE BART
      posted by mittens at 1:42 PM on February 20 [22 favorites]


      Shooting thorns into the past offers no helpful future resources. The past is a resource to inform the present to build the future. Pure antagonism is a waste of everyone's precious (overloaded) cognition. I'm fucking heartbroken about genocide AND the election. I went with my head, but sometimes the heart chooses. It's not a dichotomy worth asserting at present. Fight about/for the now. Imagine fighting fascism WITH people for whom genocide is a hard line.
      posted by droomoord at 1:53 PM on February 20 [5 favorites]


      Great job, voters who couldn't bear to sacrifice their 'principles' about Gaza!

      it's a lot easier to punch hippies than it is nazis, isn't it?
      posted by pyramid termite at 2:01 PM on February 20 [17 favorites]


      Obviously they mean a specific subset of people: Black people, disabled people, LGBT people, and anyone who won't fall into line.

      I wonder about the elderly. Even white men get old and become useless to corporations. The rest of us far sooner.
      posted by waving at 2:02 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      I'll show RFK "mentally unwell"!
      posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:07 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      people were saying that concentration camps couldn't happen here

      Well, with no ADHD meds allowed they will be more like "lack of concentration" camps
      posted by CynicalKnight at 2:17 PM on February 20 [41 favorites]


      tough break, assholes

      Your anger is a weapon that can easily be captured and used against you, just as activism was easily and widely captured to put Trump back into power.

      Please be careful about where you go on the internet to satiate that anger. The likelihood of it being a trap designed for you is very high.
      posted by CynicalKnight at 2:22 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      MF is completely public, this is not a safe space to share your bloodlust.
      posted by grumpybear69 at 2:29 PM on February 20


      it's a lot easier to punch hippies than it is nazis, isn't it?

      I swear before the Almighty, as we're getting marched into the showers, we'll be sharing the line with a Democratic apologist still bitching about Ralph Nader.
      posted by Lemkin at 2:30 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      The heart of everything, all of it, is "kill the weirdos."
      posted by jenfullmoon at 2:34 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      Mod note: One comment removed. Yes, things suck right now, and so many of are angry, scared and frustrated. But avoid typing threats of killing anyone, period.

      Do take care of yourself, please, in these harsh times. But do not advocate, joke, or talk about killing someone on this site.
      posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:35 PM on February 20 [4 favorites]


      Mod note: And outgrown_hobnail, please cease on laying blame for the election on this group or that group. It causes derails that accomplish nothing but having the same fight over and over. Stop it.
      posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:38 PM on February 20 [15 favorites]


      I'm sorry if my comment appeared to be directed at the site's users. My threat was - I thought - plainly directed at Donald Trump and the members of his administration.
      posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:45 PM on February 20


      Mod note: It's understood who it was directed at and we're asking you (and everyone else) not to advocate on this site for killing anyone, it goes against the Content Policy.

      If it continues, we'll have to issue a temp, so stop it.
      posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:49 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]


      I think the camps will be great fun.
      posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:50 PM on February 20


      That¡¯s ¡°not to advocate on this site for killing anyone¡± right? I know it¡¯s fairly obvious but it could be taken the other way.
      posted by warriorqueen at 3:00 PM on February 20


      Yes, you're write warriorqueen, thanks for the callout, I edited the text of my previous comment.
      posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:05 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      absolutely fuqing grape nuts.

      Gesetz zur Verh¨¹tung erbkranken Nachwuchses


      Aktion T4
      posted by clavdivs at 3:46 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]


      I think the best kind of comments are when someone tells people who are clearly targets of this Admin

      I don¡¯t expect (or usually, want!) everyone to remember this sort of personal detail but I assure you I have enough experience with addiction* and psych treatment that I¡¯m pretty comfortable saying my bit, here.

      If you have expressed annoyance at the heavy-footed framing of this proposal within this thread, but not at the suggestion that Black children would benefit from "reparenting," think how these reflexes might be better calibrated.

      And I¡¯m beyond comfortable asserting that keeping a functioning bullshit detector is one of the most important things one can do right now.

      * if we¡¯re doing representation grievances, I will note that this was omitted from the list of targeted conditions in the OP despite being the number one thing RFK was talking about and by far the one most likely to get someone coerced into going to Bobby¡¯s farm upstate (i.e. by getting stuck with the choice between ¡°wellness program¡± and jail) in any realistic interpretation of what he actually proposed.
      posted by atoxyl at 4:08 PM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      For those saying that the pharmaceutical industry will prevent this, do you know how many current drugs used for ADHD are not generic? Last I checked, it was one. Lisdexamfetamine. I don't know about SSRIs or bipolar medications or atypical antipsychotics, but I suspect most are generic. Big pharma is not making money off of these drugs. Factories in India, producing them for a tenth of the cost (combination of not needing to pay off the parasite class and cheaper workers and actual competition between them - safety is just as good as any other pharmaceutical factory, at least right now, as the FDA was inspecting them on the regular) are pumping them out. They are not the ones giving out hundreds of millions in bribes annually (sorry, campaign contributions and comfy post-government jobs). The companies doing that are the ones coming out with $2 million a dose drugs for rare diseases.

      So Takeda would be lobbying against it, but GlaxoPfizerElyGileadMerck will not be. They make very little once drugs go generic. Do not count on them to stop any attacks on those on psychiatric medication. Sorry.
      posted by Hactar at 4:14 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      I can't imagine the Trump/RFK alliance will hold for long, because their insanities don't mesh well. Kennedy is the crunchy granola villain that the Dead Kennedys (somehow) thought Jerry Brown was when they did California Uber Alles ("Zen fascists will control you / One-hundred percent natural / You will jog for the master race / And always wear the happy face!") and Trump is... Trump. RFK Jr. has already made a few unflattering remarks about Trump's gross diet, he just can't keep that shit to himself. He's a born scold, and nobody scolds Trump about anything. It's only a matter of time before he, like all of Trump's collaborators, either ends in jail or he's trying to sell books about what a monster Trump is.
      posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:15 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]


      Factories in India, producing them for a tenth of the cost (combination of not needing to pay off the parasite class and cheaper workers and actual competition between them - safety is just as good as any other pharmaceutical factory, at least right now, as the FDA was inspecting them on the regular) are pumping them out.

      So, um, anyone know any pharma workers in India who'd be interested in trading a few years' worth of a particular long-term SSRI for whatever American things they'd want in return?

      ...Asking for a friend, of course.
      posted by delfin at 4:25 PM on February 20 [7 favorites]


      Big pharma is not making money off of these drugs.

      As long as they sell any psychiatric medications, they need continued consumer interest and trust, so I think it's reasonable to expect them to do something to push back on policies that undermine trust in such drugs, or limit their availability etc. Whether what they do will be enough is an open question (not sure what enough even means) but I don't think it makes sense to assume they won't care about this because most SSRIs are generic.
      posted by prefpara at 4:32 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]


      The answer to the question "should you do violence against oppressors?" is absolutely something that is between you and your conscience.

      However, the answer to the question "should you talk/post about doing violence against oppressors?" is always emphatically no. And that's doubly true if you're serious about it. If that's the way you plan to make a difference, the very first thing you need to learn is good opsec; otherwise you will get yourself and/or your loved ones hurt before you have a chance.
      posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on February 20 [18 favorites]


      America invented concentration camps. America ends with concentration camps. I saved y'all a twelve volume retrospective tome.

      If you, as Americans, need refuge from this fact then I recommend the Story Corps recordings. Listen to them before they're destroyed.
      posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:08 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      Well, I'm in the middle of a miserable cold, so if anyone wants to give me a lift to RFK's office to sneeze in his face, I'm game.
      posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 5:32 PM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      Why is it conspiracy thinking to see this bananas ¡°wellness farm¡± euphemism and be reminded of labor camps? In the context of expected farm labor shortages especially. We¡¯re in general agreement that this government has fascist instincts and is trying a lot of balls to the wall stuff, and unpaid farm labor is very much already a thing (there¡¯s a prison farm maybe ten miles from my house). Why not this?
      posted by eirias at 5:52 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]


      When Alex Jones was a big deal, one could always point to the people in charge and say "Look, no one is actually doing the stupid shit you claim they're doing" and be reasonably reassured that the Alex Jones Bad Stuff was not happening.

      Unfortunately, the wackos are in charge now and all we can say is "No one is currently doing the stupi ¡­ well, ok, maybe a little stupid ¡­ oh, now that's not right ¡­ wait, what did they say? Fuck me, really?" and it's starting to look like the Bad Stupid Stuff might happen and the people in charge are certainly in favor of the Bad Stupid Stuff happening and no one has stepped up and said "You people are fucking morons" with any kind of authority and leadership and popularity. Hell, even the sensible people we had a decade ago are strangely silent. Even the bad people we had before them (who seem pretty goddamn sane by comparison, now) are being quiet.

      So where does that leave us?

      We're all kind of stuck with throwing ideas against the wall and waiting until someone salutes it, and mixing metaphors in the hopes that one of them actually makes sense in this crazy-ass upside-down world.

      I hate to say it, but I'd be fine with Dick Cheney being in charge again. He might have been an Evil Bastard, but he was a predictable old-school evil.

      This decade may be the decade I start drinking, for reals.
      posted by JustSayNoDawg at 6:12 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      This reads like a good description of the history of concentration camps. First, Spain in Cuba, then the U.S. in the Philippines, then the British in the Second Boer War.
      posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:36 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      Why is it conspiracy thinking to see this bananas ¡°wellness farm¡± euphemism and be reminded of labor camps?

      Because if you look at was actually said and the person who said it and the cited inspiration of a farm-based sober living community attached to an $11,000 rehab it¡¯s not a euphemism. It¡¯s a sincere product of ¡°wellness¡± culture. The dark side of ¡°wellness¡± and ¡°recovery¡± culture is a massive topic that I¡¯d be happy to talk about, as I think my previous comments should make clear. The ways ¡°voluntary¡± or criminal diversion programs can be abused are also a good topic, and I would hardly begrudge anyone saying they don¡¯t trust the Trump administration in this respect. But taking an half-baked idea that has only ever been described in terms of creating volunteer opportunities (RFK¡¯s other reference point was of course the Peace Corps) and resources for recovery in a pastoral setting and jumping straight to reframing in terms of ¡°rounding people up¡± and ¡°cover story for labor camps to fill the coming farm labor shortage¡± is FEMA camps, death panels grade misinformation.
      posted by atoxyl at 7:30 PM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      And again if I wanted to pull ¡°vulnerable group¡± rank I could say that taking something that really conceivably could end up less than fully voluntary for, say, people facing drug charges and framing it like people should be worried about getting rounded up for taking SSRIs feels a lot like people who it¡¯s Not About making it about themselves.

      But that¡¯s not, truthfully, what upset me here. The misleading framing out the gate and the ¡°okay there¡¯s no evidence this is true but it could be¡± thinking, on the other hand¡­
      posted by atoxyl at 7:47 PM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      I think the internment of japanese-americans during world war II is hugely under-taught as part of history class. it fucking happened here. people were literally ushered (to use a very uh gentle word) from their homes at gunpoint, had to leave everything behind, to board boats to trains to camps like manzanar. on the west coast of the great u s of a. because third generation americans are totally spies.
      posted by one-half-ole at 8:25 PM on February 20 [10 favorites]


      These proposed internments are going to happen to white people. It's never going to happen.
      posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:17 PM on February 20 [3 favorites]


      Having worked inpatient I can tell you our current mental health system is not that far off from what RFK is proposing, and y¡¯all might want to read up on mad activism and institutionalization if you want to get serious about fighting this, whatever form it takes.
      posted by brook horse at 9:22 PM on February 20 [15 favorites]


      As long as they sell any psychiatric medications, they need continued consumer interest and trust, so I think it's reasonable to expect them to do something to push back on policies that undermine trust in such drugs, or limit their availability etc.

      Of course not. Instead, insurance companies are going to cite some new bullshit guidelines and drive the cost of prescription meds through the roof. Everyone up the food chain will get their beaks wet while your average American drowns (even more) in medical debt.

      2025! *jazzhands*
      posted by lock robster at 9:45 PM on February 20 [6 favorites]


      because the logistics would never work out or that this thing is what will finally drive the press and the Democrats to resist more forcefully

      If twenty years of "surely this" have taught me anything, it's to pin such little hope as I can muster on the first one.
      posted by flabdablet at 10:25 PM on February 20 [12 favorites]


      Wellness farm with barbed wire, people screaming to get out, detailed oil painting, salvador dali.
      posted by graywyvern at 4:29 AM on February 21


      Whatever this is, it's not good.

      My hope with RFKJ is that he's basically another Matt Gaetz, a patently moronic and objectionable effigy tossed out there for everyone to throw gas on (figuratively). A person like that is useful when you have other, much more objectionable figures you would like to see succeed lurking on the periphery. He's also not really a Trump ally, politically. He is the kind of person Trump can point at and be like, "Look! Big tent!" even though he doesn't intend for him to really succeed at anything. He's just a distraction.

      The main problem with concentration camps on a practical level is that they require a lot of work to maintain, and hard work isn't something this administration is interested in or good at. I believe that Trump would be willing to establish camps and put a big smiling statue of himself in front of one, but I don't believe he would be at all interested in ensuring they operate. It's just too much effort, and there a lot of people you would have to pay, and this is all stuff he hates a lot.

      That said, it's the thought that counts. The problem isn't really that this will happen, because it probably won't happen. The problem is that if this could happen and doing it would not require any work, it would definitely happen, this very second, and you had better believe that it would.
      posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:01 AM on February 21 [9 favorites]


      Having worked inpatient I can tell you our current mental health system is not that far off from what RFK is proposing

      A sad irony: my inpatient experience probably would've been improved 1000 times if they'd had us actually doing something. Not necessarily like forced labor on the listeria farms, but something other than zombiing around a couple of fluorescent corridors surrounding the nurse's station/TV area. At least they had a tiny little smoking courtyard, so you could go somewhere, but it wasn't much.
      posted by mittens at 5:01 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]


      And again if I wanted to pull ¡°vulnerable group¡± rank I could say that taking something that really conceivably could end up less than fully voluntary for, say, people facing drug charges and framing it like people should be worried about getting rounded up for taking SSRIs feels a lot like people who it¡¯s Not About making it about themselves.

      I feel you on this. People of colour, inmates and LGBTQ will be first when/if this goes down, but the white folks seem to think they'll be at the front of the line so they get priority about Making It About Me.
      posted by Kitteh at 5:18 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]


      RFJ may be a near platonic example of what Stalin meant by "useful idiot".

      Yes, HE was initially talking about some half baked right wing hippie granola shit. But it paves the way, he provides cover, and some Project 2025 type takes it and turns it into a way to "reparent" urban youth harmed by the liberal destruction of the family. That is, to use Black people as forced labor to replace deported immigrants.

      RFK himself isn't really the problem.
      posted by sotonohito at 5:45 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]


      On the other hand, allowing the messaging to be watered down to the point of "as long as I'm not one of THOSE people, this isn't significant enough to me" isn't protecting frontline groups either.

      If white middle-class depressed moms get into their "o hell no, I hate this idea" feels sooner rather than later, their opposition could be helpful.

      There are so many things that are happening that seem like a mix of pulling from fascist history and technofeudalist ketamine hallucinations that it's hard to say for sure where limits would be. The Khmer Rouge and French Revolution weren't exactly surgical or impervious to momentum. The main thing that this regime considers unacceptable is opposition. Disabilities and "moral" grievances are examples of narrative cover to minimize direct opposition in the short-term.

      I do not believe there is any real consideration to CARE for addicted, neurodivergent, or neurochemically disabled people. I think there's a real interest in some bizarre idea of removing the freaks from society.

      Allowing, "Yes, Susan on Prozac, this includes you," to go unchallenged is better in my estimation than the frog-boil approach as more demographics become eligible to help MAGA farm-to-table-style, for their own good.
      posted by droomoord at 5:50 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]


      The main problem with concentration camps on a practical level is that they require a lot of work to maintain, and hard work isn't something this administration is interested in or good at.

      (a) There¡¯s a whole highly profitable prison industry that they can contract out to do this for them.

      (b) This is only an issue if you assume that they care about maintenance or providing livable or humane conditions. As the migrant detention camps from Trump¡¯s first term amply demonstrated, that assumption appears to be unsupported by available evidence.
      posted by eviemath at 6:28 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]


      Between the history of inpatient mental health care, prison labor, history of racist and eugenicist child protective services policies, and residential schools in the US, there are quite a lot of precedents for RFK Jr.¡®s proposal, unfortunately, even before you look at the WWII era concentration camps for Japanese-Americans or current and historical detention camps for immigrants and asylum seekers.
      posted by eviemath at 6:35 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]


      A sad irony: my inpatient experience probably would've been improved 1000 times if they'd had us actually doing something. Not necessarily like forced labor on the listeria farms, but something other than zombiing around a couple of fluorescent corridors surrounding the nurse's station/TV area. At least they had a tiny little smoking courtyard, so you could go somewhere, but it wasn't much.

      Yeah, that¡¯s part of why this is potentially going to get traction. Anyone who works in higher levels of psychiatric care, or maybe even who has received it in the past or knows someone who has, if they don¡¯t have the baseline suspicion to scrutinize it, they¡¯re probably going to say, ¡°Holy fucking shit, they¡¯re going to fund residential programs that include meaningful work and exposure to nature? And not kick people out in three weeks because insurance thinks they aren¡¯t getting better fast enough?!¡± and think this is a vast improvement on the current system. Rather than an extension of the current abuses.
      posted by brook horse at 8:10 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]


      Russia has a long history of detaining dissidents in a similar manner, "punitive psychiatry" is one of the labels applied to it. There was a blurb in Reuters about it just this week.
      posted by gimonca at 8:14 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]


      One piece I¡¯d like to see talked about is that as far as I can see, nothing proposed actually restricts autonomy more than our current psychiatric system. The details vary but the control over behavior and what does or does not go in people¡¯s bodies is not functionally different.

      Is your reaction, ¡°This is bad because it¡¯s replacing standard psychiatric with woo?¡± Or is it, ¡°This is bad because it¡¯s stripping people of their autonomy, taking needed medications from them, and forcing them to engage in various actions against their will?¡±

      The answer can be both, but if the second is important to you, I need to tell you that people in inpatient are routinely stripped of their needed medications in inpatient and forced to engage in ¡°behavior plans¡± against their will. The only difference here is scale¡ªyou are perhaps now finding yourself in the circle of people who can be targeted and controlled via psychiatry¡¯s specific, government-afforded legal power to imprison people and control their behavior.

      If you¡¯d like to take some of that anxious energy that this news has brought up, consider campaigning or volunteering for community-based mental health solutions in your area that do not wield the legal power afforded to psychiatrists against mad autonomy.
      posted by brook horse at 8:26 AM on February 21 [12 favorites]


      So, people who take this seriously, hollowed out federal apparatus, RFK's personal incompetence and all, what is the plan to prevent it? Should people currently on SSRIs just feel like they're on borrowed time until it happens?
      posted by Selena777 at 8:29 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]


      Should people currently on SSRIs just feel like they're on borrowed time until it happens?

      No. It¡¯s not going to happen in the way that¡¯s described in this thread and it¡¯s not going to target every random person on SSRIs. It¡¯s pulling pretty clearly from a playbook marketing as a ¡°solution¡± to people who cycle in and out of inpatient and residential care. There may be downstream effects on SSRI access from changes at the FDA, but the people at risk for being sent to ¡°wellness farms¡± are not those who are stable and live ¡°productive¡± lives on SSRIs. This is targeting people who are regularly experiencing acute mental health crises and seen as a drain on the system.

      This does not reduce the harm it will cause if it does get off the ground, but it does not apply to the majority of people on SSRIs and their allyship will be needed to help protect the people it does target. At the moment I don¡¯t know what mad/crip activist movements are planning as the best way to combat it, but I¡¯m hopefully attending a meeting next week and can report back on strategies if there are ones they want to be shared publicly.
      posted by brook horse at 8:55 AM on February 21 [23 favorites]


      I realize my two posts are somewhat contradictory¡ªto clarify, I think this will expand the circle of who can be targeted and stripped of their autonomy, but it¡¯s because it¡¯s expanding inpatient-level control to people experiencing residential-level crises. So if you have needed residential care in the past and may find yourself in that state again, this is a meaningful threat to your level of autonomy, as it is more restrictive than standard residential care (but not more so than inpatient). Inpatient and residential care are extremely expensive, and so if this gets off the ground it will be pitched as a way to ¡°cure¡± people and prevent repeat inpatient and residential visits, which will be blamed on the failure of psychiatric medication etc.

      However, those who have not required that kind of care are not on ¡°borrowed time¡± and will likely not face this threat to their autonomy unless they experience an acute crisis (which can happen to anyone). It¡¯s a danger but not a clock ticking down.
      posted by brook horse at 9:06 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]


      brookhorse, I'd love an FPP about mad activism and mad autonomy. This is the first time I've come across these terms/ideas.
      posted by kitcat at 9:10 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]


      A sad irony: my inpatient experience probably would've been improved 1000 times if they'd had us actually doing something. Not necessarily like forced labor on the listeria farms, but something other than zombiing around a couple of fluorescent corridors surrounding the nurse's station/TV area. At least they had a tiny little smoking courtyard, so you could go somewhere, but it wasn't much.

      Yes, I saw a lot of zombiing during my inpatient too. I think it was just the luck of a certain group of people and their synergy that made the experience for me and the other bipolar smokers into the most fun (interspersed with great pain) we'd had in ages. But people in an acute mental health crisis really need rest, too. A lot of structured activity isn't going allow for that.
      posted by kitcat at 9:16 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]


      I¡¯ll throw it in my to-do list, but if you want something sooner than whenever I get around to it, terms like ¡°mad pride¡± ¡°mad rights movement¡± and ¡°mad studies¡± will be helpful for finding information!

      There is also overlap with ¡°anti-psychiatry¡± but the political anti-psych of the 60-80s is very different from modern social media anti-psychiatry which is unfortunately often (though not always) just made up of anti-med soundbites that align with stuff like RFK¡¯s ideas, rather than being centered around the concept of patient autonomy and the specific legal power afforded to psychiatrists by virtue of being an MD with hospital admitting privileges (which with very few exceptions psychologists, therapists, social workers, etc. do not have). So I¡¯d avoid searching up that term if you¡¯re not familiar enough to disentangle that, but you might see that around too.
      posted by brook horse at 9:17 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]


      The Independent, from April 2023:
      Trump reveals new homelessness policy: Tent cities for rehabilitation and jail for those who refuse
      Trump wants to ban urban camping ¡®wherever possible¡¯
      Former President Donald Trump has released the outlines a new homelessness policy based on banning urban camping, setting up tent cities, and sending people who decline ¡°treatment¡± to jail.

      Mr Trump has increasingly focused in his current campaign for the White House on rising levels of homelessness in major cities and is taking a characteristically authoritian approach to dealing with them. In a new video, Mr Trump proposes banning camping wherever possible; arresting anyone found sleeping in unsanctioned areas outdoors; and presenting people with a choice: either agree to enter treatment programmes or go to jail.

      ¡°Violators of these bans will be arrested, but they will be given the option to accept treatment and services if they¡¯re willing to be rehabilitated,¡± Mr Trump said in a recent video. ¡°Many of them don¡¯t want that. But we¡¯ll give them the option.¡±
      ...
      To combat homelessness, which is driven first and foremost by high housing costs, Mr Trump is proposing opening large ¡°tent cities,¡± or camps, where homeless people would be forced to live if they did not want to go to jail.

      ¡°We will then open up large parcels of inexpensive land, bring in doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, and drug rehab specialists and create tent cities where the homeless can be relocated and their problems identified,¡± Mr Trump said in the video. ¡°But we¡¯ll open up our cities again, make them livable and make them beautiful.¡±

      It is unclear as of yet how Mr Trump would fund his plan. The operation of the ¡°tent cities¡± alone would likely require a vast amount of money, as would the employment of doctors and social workers to work with houseless people.

      The plan would also likely attract the opposition of civil rights groups over the extent to which it would coerce people into recieving treatment or living in camps. Bans on public camping in US cities largely have not gotten people off the streets, but rather forced people to move away from needed social services.
      posted by rambling wanderlust at 9:18 AM on February 21 [5 favorites]


      One piece I¡¯d like to see talked about is that as far as I can see, nothing proposed actually restricts autonomy more than our current psychiatric system.

      As far as I can tell the ¡°proposal¡± so far amounts to RFK rambling in interviews, but based on those the only explicit mention of restricting autonomy is in context of court-ordered drug treatment, basically. So I think your takes mesh fairly well with what I¡¯ve been trying to say, which is that at face value it¡¯s exactly as involuntary as the systems that already exist. And I suspect it is rooted in a sincere notion of

      residential programs that include meaningful work and exposure to nature

      ¡­as filtered through a condescendingly racist old crank. The particularly alarming details here are that everything we know about the man suggests he¡¯s likely to favor this kind of shit over actually evidence-based medication-assisted treatment, and that there is no shortage of examples of this sort of agrarian communal vision turning into an abusive cult!
      posted by atoxyl at 10:19 AM on February 21 [8 favorites]


      Actually the single most alarming thing I¡¯ve been able to dig up is that RFK has mentioned among his inspirations the San Patrignano program in Italy, which already ran the full cult cycle from being hailed as a miracle to having its charismatic founder tried for covering up a murder in the 80s.
      posted by atoxyl at 10:25 AM on February 21 [7 favorites]


      I've been recently listening back through the podcast The Constant - A History of Getting Things Wrong. Last night on my commute was the episode "The Reflex", about the birthing clinics in mid-19th century Vienna, where the one staffed by doctors had three times the maternal mortality rate of the one staffed by midwives. Ignaz Semmelweis came along, and found the only difference was the doctors were doing autopsies in the morning before delivering babies. He had them wash their hands after the autopsies, and the mortality rate dropped from 18% to 2%.

      The thing was, at the time they didn't understand that diseases were even a communicable thing, so there was no theory about WHY the hand washing worked. Just the data showed that it did. The medical community... utterly rejected that hand washing was meaningful, and actually was offended by it. Because doctors of the time were "upstanding gentlemen", and suggesting they even needed to wash their hands implied they were unclean, and they were offended. So Semmelweis spent his entire life being mocked and rejected for his work, regardless of what the data said. Because the data conflicted with the existing worldviews of those people.

      While we're overall better today at listening to data, there are still entirely too many people, especially in positions of power, that are unwilling to listen to anything that conflicts with their world views. In this case, I think that rift is very clear when it comes to things like autism, ADHD, anxiety, and depression. As much progress has been made to recognize these aren't new things, but things that have been around forever, there are still so many people who absolutely believe these not to be medical in nature, but moral failings. ADHD doesn't mean your brain works differently, because that doesn't happen. It just means you're lazy, that you don't work hard enough. You just need the right discipline to fix you.

      Especially because if we accept that peoples' brains work different, it means there's even more if that most evil of ideas, "diversity".

      Never mind the fact that the same people pushing these ideas also 100% believe that who a person is and what they can accomplish is entirely determined at birth, a cage which everyone is placed into and never allowed to leave, lest they upset the natural hierarchies which are so natural that they must be enforced by every means possible.
      posted by evilangela at 10:28 AM on February 21 [10 favorites]


      The most alarming aspect to me is that the people RFK would be relying on to sanction/implement the particulars of his grand utopian vision are eugenicist psychopaths.
      posted by droomoord at 10:44 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]


      (Please accept my apologies/awareness for the derogatory/ableist use of the word psychopath. I don't have a word ready for that real medical condition minus the medical condition part.)
      posted by droomoord at 10:48 AM on February 21


      Guys? Can I gently suggest that perhaps trying to debunk one of the things that we can hang around the neck of Trump like an albatros, one of the very few things his administration is talking about or doing right now scares suburban white people, is probably not the best strategy?

      Like LBJ said, I don't care if he fucked the pig or not, I want to make the son of a bitch deny it.
      posted by sotonohito at 12:09 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]


      Like LBJ said, I don't care if he fucked the pig or not, I want to make the son of a bitch deny it.

      That would be called "playing offense" and the Democratic Party as is is currently structured (autocorrect wanted to change this to "stunted" and I have to admit it had a point) is not capable of that.

      Mitch McConnell is at death's door and we're gonna suck up his funeral like the losers we are. Hunter S. Thompson was right about the American Left.
      posted by East14thTaco at 12:43 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]


      The audience here isn¡¯t the undifferentiated mass of persuadable suburb-dwellers, it¡¯s the users of MetaFilter. I can¡¯t speak for anyone else but I didn¡¯t pay my $5 to listen to people workshop their political scare stories, and that goes double when there is real, but different, potential for harm underneath. Maybe try Facebook.
      posted by atoxyl at 12:44 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]


      "I didn't pay my $5."

      Are you fucking serious? I suppose this is another place I need to get fucked from.

      The American Experiment is over.
      posted by East14thTaco at 12:55 PM on February 21


      Huh, that was quite sincerely not a part of my comment I was expecting to offend. It was meant as a slightly cheeky reference to shared history and the idea of the signup fee as a token of good faith. I was obviously being harsh in general, though, and I will take it down a couple notches, because where it¡¯s coming from is that I¡¯m feeling this way myself:

      I suppose this is another place I need to get fucked from

      The American Experiment is over

      The thing is, what I¡¯m worked up about is the number of people willing to die on the hill of ¡°so what if it¡¯s not literally true it¡¯s a useful message¡± combined with the other people expressing apparently sincere anxiety over the most distorted interpretations. If you want to play hardball in political advertising, sure, go ahead but doing this to ourselves is not consistent with the spirit of good faith and informative discussion that I would like to think this site aspires to.
      posted by atoxyl at 1:25 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]


      Scaring into paralysis people who are relatively stable and could be advocates for those in actual immediate danger is not helpful activism. It might score you a political win in the media cycle but it¡¯ll come at the cost of hollowing out our ability to organize and support each other.
      posted by brook horse at 1:32 PM on February 21 [10 favorites]


      (My history with the signup fee is that the token investment and friction meant it did take me several years of reading the site to take the leap of making an account, so it¡¯s just has some symbolic significance. It wasn¡¯t supposed to be an old user thing or a serious complaint that you all aren¡¯t delivering the entertainment I paid for)
      posted by atoxyl at 1:33 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]


      I mean, currently I would say the American experiment is imperiled. You have a president who seems to be exceeding his legal authority, and then misquoting Napoleon to justify breaking laws if it's the right thing to do. I don't know how much world history the President knows, but generally speaking, Napoleon is not the guy you want to turn to for governance advice.

      But it's a long way from over. I mean, this is not yet a civil war. We did one of those, may not have learned as many lessons as we could have, learned a few, survived. I am not saying this to in any way trivialize the damage that Trump has already done; I'm just saying, he's shit all over the carpet and he broke a lot of windows, but the house is standing upright.
      posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:10 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]


      I'm afraid that many Americans would think that locking up drug addicts, the unhoused and immigrants would be just fine, a way of "helping" the unfortunate. DOn't know what to think about people on legal pharmaceuticals, the overweight, etc. I know I am clinging to my Ozempic RX which I have for diabetes.
      posted by etaoin at 5:07 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]


      Maybe try Facebook.

      I did and you know what

      They said kid you're going places
      posted by ginger.beef at 6:46 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]


      >Napoleon is not the guy you want to turn to for governance advice

      He did a decent job on the autocracy front tho?? Napoleonic Code, etc. His key FAFO was just penetrating the 600 miles from the Niemen into Russia; his armies defeated the Russians at Borodino on September 7, 1812, a full month before the Germans smashed their way that far into Russia in 1941. Then Moscow burned down and his supply depots back in Smolensk etc. became so, so far away.

      Not that a dictator was great shakes, but I'd take that over the centuries of shit governance that came before, including whatever the hell the "Enlightenment" birthed in Paris.
      posted by torokunai2 at 7:49 PM on February 21


      I'm afraid that many Americans would think that locking up drug addicts, the unhoused and immigrants would be just fine, a way of "helping" the unfortunate.

      Extrapolating from many Canadians I know they won't even hide behind the fig leaf of helping. They just want to problem of seeing a homeless person to go away and would be enthusiastic about a system that swept the streets sending anyone who doesn't look like they showered today away. Doesn't matter where. Just somewhere they don't have to see them. Seeing someone sleeping under a freeway overpass while they zoom past at 100km/h is so offensive they would be all in on indefinite detainment as a punishment. If "away" is a tent housing facility in the high Arctic without heat or 40¡ãC scrub land without A/C *shrugs*. Shouldn't have been offending people by not having a residence.

      The operation of the ¡°tent cities¡± alone would likely require a vast amount of money, as would the employment of doctors and social workers to work with houseless people.

      Joe Arpaio's tent city is what should be expected. Lawsuits aside it cost less than $10k a year per inmate IIRC. The price of doctors and social workers will steadily decline as ratios increase to essentially zero once you have thousands of inmates per.

      , Mr Trump proposes banning camping wherever possible; arresting anyone found sleeping in unsanctioned areas outdoors;

      While I realize camping is a euphemism saying you are going to ban something innocuous whose popularity has seen its strongest growth since Henry Ford got together with fellow Nazi Edison for some time in the woods seems like a bad choice. Still I have no problem believing Trump would ban all camping if he could. He surely doesn't get the appeal.
      posted by Mitheral at 4:57 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]


      If we're talking specifically about people without homes, it's not unusual for them to create tent cities of their own volition; what is unusual is local government allowing the tent cities to stand. A tent city built by the state, frankly, sounds egalitarian compared to the reality, where people without homes are generally left to figure out day to day survival on their own. As such, it's hard for me to imagine this is something the GOP has on its agenda.
      posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:22 AM on February 22


      Extrapolating from many Canadians I know they won't even hide behind the fig leaf of helping. They just want to problem of seeing a homeless person to go away and would be enthusiastic about a system that swept the streets sending anyone who doesn't look like they showered today away. Doesn't matter where. Just somewhere they don't have to see them. Seeing someone sleeping under a freeway overpass while they zoom past at 100km/h is so offensive they would be all in on indefinite detainment as a punishment. If "away" is a tent housing facility in the high Arctic without heat or 40¡ãC scrub land without A/C *shrugs*. Shouldn't have been offending people by not having a residence.


      Yuuuuuuup. The unhoused population exploded during 2020 onwards and it has made people who have housing/food/employment incredibly angry. I've watched as homeless people are demonized as one drug taking/lazy monolith. Again, given the volatile situation on either side of the border that could be made worse with tariffs, people refuse to understand how close they are to this sad outcome happening to them. Hell, I feel fairly secure usually but I even know anything could happen to change that.
      posted by Kitteh at 5:32 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]


      Time to buy a gun I guess.
      posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:08 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]


      "Time to buy a gun I guess."

      You should also practice with it at a range (at home if you're more rural)...otherwise it becomes more of a liability.
      posted by schyler523 at 6:03 AM on February 25 [2 favorites]


      people without homes, it's not unusual for them to create tent cities of their own volition; [...] A tent city built by the state, frankly, sounds egalitarian compared to the reality, where people without homes are generally left to figure out day to day survival on their own.

      And if the state was just setting up a place people were free to come to or not that might be ok though extremely disappointing in a country as rich as America which should be able to afford hard wall buildings. Kennedy's proposal is to force people to go to those places, restrict them from leaving, and force them to work at hard labour. IE a gulag. The linked wiki has all sorts of examples and the term wellness camp fits right in with other propaganda names like re-education camps, labor companies, and corrective labor colony.
      posted by Mitheral at 6:39 AM on February 25 [3 favorites]


      See if there's a local branch of the Socialist Rifle Association if you're serious about getting a gun and practicing.
      posted by sotonohito at 6:03 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]


      Appears metafilter ignored the planned medicaid cuts thus far, except for the one single mention in this thread.

      Trump drew the line at Social Security cuts in Republicans' proposed budget, but Medicaid is on the chopping block

      - House Republicans unveiled a budget draft that potentially cuts critical Medicaid funding.
      - The Budget Committee draft instructs the Energy and Commerce Committee to cut at least $880 billion.
      - Medicaid spending in 2023 was nearly $872 billion.
      - House and Senate GOP leaders aren't on the same page when it comes to advancing Trump's agenda.
      posted by jeffburdges at 2:30 AM on February 26


      For reference, I ran a small net through the fever swamp. Trumpoid reactions include:
      * "It's a MASSIVE WIN keeping all of his promises for no taxes on tips, overtime and Social Security" (a shell game at best, and reports vary as to whether this bill addresses any of those)
      * "Democrats are lying because the bill never uses the word 'Medicaid' or 'SNAP'" (though it certainly targets massive cuts at areas where Medicaid and SNAP are the only viable targets)
      * "Medicaid is full of waste, fraud and corruption and costing Americans billions of dollars handing health care to FRAUDSTERS and ILLEGALS" (pull the other one, it's got bells on)
      * "We're not cutting Medicaid, but we will attach stringent work requirements to make it fair." (can't print what I would like Tommy Tuberville to do here)
      * "The Biden administration laundered 2.7 trillion dollars through Medicare and Medicaid to foreigners who shouldn't have gotten it" (riiiiiiiiight)
      * Further proof that Democrats hate America and that Republicans are the party of the working class." (Only if defined as "a vast underclass that will never be able to afford to stop working.")
      posted by delfin at 11:20 AM on February 26 [4 favorites]


      In RFK news today:

      The first death from measles in at least a decade just happened, in an unvaccinated child in Texas.

      The government just yanked a bunch of vaccine trials for Covid for things like vaccines-in-pill-form.

      FDA just cancelled without explanation their scheduled meeting to determine what the components for the 2025/2026 flu vaccine should be.

      Heckuva job, Trump voters.
      posted by Justinian at 4:29 PM on February 26 [3 favorites]


      Oh, I forgot to include RFK jr's ghoulish and idiotic statement that the Texas measles outbreak which has grown to more than 120 people and killed a kid is "not unusual".

      If you ever supported RFKjr, and we all know some folks reading this did, you need to rethink all your life choices.
      posted by Justinian at 4:31 PM on February 26 [3 favorites]


      We do indeed get measles outbreaks most years.

      What RFK omitted is that the numbers rise and fall as antivax rhetoric becomes more and less common/popular.

      In 2023 we had 64. In 2024 we had 285. And right before covid we had over a thousand in 2019.

      Basically as people like him gain power more children get measles because people like him discourage vaccinations.
      posted by sotonohito at 8:09 PM on February 26 [4 favorites]


      FDA cancels vaccine advisory meeting for choosing flu strains for next season's shots
      posted by jeffburdges at 8:14 AM on February 28


      Now would appear to be the time to vaccinate the body politic against the epidemic of "bird flu came from a lab leak in China" stories so clearly peeping over the horizon.

      Could be risky, though, given how badly the patient is still suffering from the raging stupidity infection brought on by the related COVID story strain. Masking in public and practising social media distancing might be the best we can do at this point.
      posted by flabdablet at 11:30 PM on February 28 [1 favorite]


      « Older Project 2025 Tracker   |   It doesn't all have to be doom and gloom Newer »


      This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments




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